At what point are you guiding without a license?

[Panhandler80]

I’m sure this varies State to state, and most scenarios are easily categorized. In my mind there’s some grey area, though. Two scenarios come to mind.

1. Hunt trip swap.

2. Friend of a friend, or somebody not immediately we’ll known, who agrees to mentor / participate / join for a hunt in exchange for his or her expenses being paid. The individual likely will have purchased his own license, tag, gear, but if a second individual picked up (for example) his food, hotel, airfare, but nothing above and beyond that… is he then “guiding?” I’m inclined to say no considering that he’s actively hunting as well, is not making a profit, is somewhat known to the second party.

Thoughts?

 

[MattB]

My sense is any time you are receiving compensation (which does not necessarily need to be in the form of cash), it could be argued that you are guiding. With that, both scenarios above could be alleged to be guiding.

 

[AZxp]

In AZ, hard expense reimbursement is not guiding. Any money beyond verifiable immediate expenses (can't buy a BTX for your buddies hunt) can be paid.

 

[RuggedYogi]

#2 would make me nervous.

 

[HuntHarder]

In Az, I believe it is worded as receiving "fair market value compensation" in order to be considered guiding. The wording was changed a few years ago to allow guys to pay guys for fuel used or food bought for their help.

 

[RS_Non-Res]

In #2 above the person in question has "his own license, tag, gear.". That's hunting not guiding. His rich buddy is covering expenses.

 

[Panhandler80]

In #2 above the person in question has "his own license, tag, gear.". That's hunting not guiding. His rich buddy is covering expenses.

Kinda the way I was looking at it.

 

[adventure907]

Both scenarios illegal in Alaska.

 

[Laramie]

Just depends on the state. Know the laws where you hunt. They are usually plenty clear and if in doubt, shoot them am email and keep their response in writing.

 

[2rocky]

A close friend in an arid Western state really loves taking people into a wilderness area for pack in hunts, regardless of whether he is hunting or not.

His buddies started joshing him about being an illegal outfitter and even made up a magnet sign they put on his truck with a 1 800 number. It was a funny joke until the Board of Outfitters showed up at his door doing an investigation. Luckily he had an extensive record keeping system that showed him paying into the general fund for food and drink and his only reimbursement was for shoeing horses.

If you want to be above reproach don't exchange any money. On a hunt swap, you host them 100% they host you 100% . Don't even talk about VALUE...

Scenario 2 is still amounting to getting paid. the fact that there is no net profit really doesn't matter. The absence of a first degree friendship makes it even ickier.

 

[william schmaltz]

Interesting. I always split everything 50/50 with guests.

Where does the moral line end I guess? Say I'm going hunting and my partner wants to pay for my half of the transporter as a gift and nothing more. No additional money for food, fuel, gear, gift, etc. Sounds like most aren't comfortable with friend of a friend in that scenario. How about a friend? uncle? parent? If my aunt wants to gift my uncle a hunt for his 60th and pay for my transporter costs as well to make it happen, is that pirate guiding if we do the hunt in Alaska and he's my house guest and we use my gear? Technically I'm his guest on the hunt since he's paying but I'm the one with the knowledge of the area and species. Does residency in the state matter? Would it be legal if we did it in another state and still used my gear? I don't see any difference in me taking my uncle in this scenario than an uncle/nephew coming up from the L48 and the uncle pays for everything but they ship up the nephew's gear.

 

[roadrunner]

Guiding is when you "provide services in consideration of...".

A hunter paying for fuel and buying you a cheeseburger is not "in consideration of". Consideration is receiving monetary compensation above and beyond consumables (fuel, food, Mtn Dew, and, in the case of fishing, lures/bait).

 

[HighUintas]

I wouldn't consider either scenario guiding.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

Both scenarios illegal in Alaska.

For real? Wouldn’t paying for gas fall under that then?

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

Interesting. I always split everything 50/50 with guests.

Where does the moral line end I guess? Say I'm going hunting and my partner wants to pay for my half of the transporter as a gift and nothing more. No additional money for food, fuel, gear, gift, etc. Sounds like most aren't comfortable with friend of a friend in that scenario. How about a friend? uncle? parent? If my aunt wants to gift my uncle a hunt for his 60th and pay for my transporter costs as well to make it happen, is that pirate guiding if we do the hunt in Alaska and he's my house guest and we use my gear? Technically I'm his guest on the hunt since he's paying but I'm the one with the knowledge of the area and species. Does residency in the state matter? Would it be legal if we did it in another state and still used my gear? I don't see any difference in me taking my uncle in this scenario than an uncle/nephew coming up from the L48 and the uncle pays for everything but they ship up the nephew's gear.

I agree. Maybe that is why we have the 2nd degree of Kin rule?

I’ve had Marine friends I’ve extended an offer to come up and tag along for a moose hunt. They have to have a tag. But if they drew a hunt I didn’t and asked me to tag along, what’s wrong with me using my boat? Or letting them cover gas expenses if they offered? There’s a point that we just need to realize the difference in intent.

 

[Panhandler80]

I’ve heard enough.

Letter of law (to prevent unlicensed folks guiding thereby putting many others at risk plus an element of hunting state can’t monitor) vs common sense on what’s NOT a guide. Gotta have both.

Guess I’m right where I started.

 

[adventure907]

For real? Wouldn’t paying for gas fall under that then?

Trading hunts is only legal when done by a registered guide. In the other scenario, it becomes a slippery slope when one starts paying for the other hunters expenses. As is often the case, the final answer may be how the trooper interprets things.

 

[Panhandler80]

Trading hunts is only legal when done by a registered guide. In the other scenario, it becomes a slippery slope when one starts paying for the other hunters expenses. As is often the case, the final answer may be how the trooper interprets things.

What is “trading hunts” if neither one is a guide or has any ambition to become one.

I think common sense reigns and I apologize for the initial post.

 

[adventure907]

Say I am just a dude in Alaska and offer to take you moose hunting. In exchange, you offer to take me elk hunting in Montana, for hypothetical purposes. From my understanding, this is illegal in Alaska. I am only referring to Alaska though, of course different states have different laws, and if you want it straight from the horses mouth, I'd talk to law enforcement for a definitive answer.

 

[wapitibob]

I think it was 2 bean burritos and a soda in NM.