Arrow weight and speed

[Billy Goat]

I will say however that I saw a big difference in the penetration on the animals I killed this year vs the ones I killed last year after switching to heavier arrows with higher FOC. About 435gr and 14% last year to 550gr and 18% this year. No pass throughs on deer last year (3 arrows). All impacts were pass throughs this year (2).

Did you spend an equal amount of effort tuning both of those arrow weights/arrow setups?

Or I guess really I should ask, do you know that both were flying correctly out of the bow?

In my experience if a 435gr shaft ain't passing through a deer routinely, something is wrong.

 

[Big_wals]

Did you spend an equal amount of effort tuning both of those arrow weights/arrow setups?

Or I guess really I should ask, do you know that both were flying correctly out of the bow?

In my experience if a 435gr shaft ain't passing through a deer routinely, something is wrong.

I think that is something that is sometimes overlooked, or just not achieved. And I'm as guilty as anyone, fairly new to archery and not really good at tuning an arrow perfectly.

I am a self confessed Ranch Fairy Koolaid drinker, and have read a lot of the Ashby reports. But even the RF has said in multiple videos that he'd rather take a lighter arrow that's flying PERFECTLY over a heavier setup that just ticks the heavy weight, high foc boxes.

 

[Billy Goat]

I think that is something that is sometimes overlooked, or just not achieved. And I'm as guilty as anyone, fairly new to archery and not really good at tuning an arrow perfectly.

I am a self confessed Ranch Fairy Koolaid drinker, and have read a lot of the Ashby reports. But even the RF has said in multiple videos that he'd rather take a lighter arrow that's flying PERFECTLY over a heavier setup that just ticks the heavy weight, high foc boxes.

I mean, you start to seek out a better way, so you turn to the internet, or YouTube, or whatever. Your issues are penetration, in chasing a heavier arrow you actually hopefully learn to tune your bow, not just take it to a shop and let them tell you "it shoots a bullet hole".

So then you get the results you were after, but was it the shaft weight or the good arrow flight? Or both? Or paying more attention to shot placement, broadhead selection, etc.


It's likely all the above to different degrees.


Or your heavy as chit arrow does fly better because for the most part, they are more forgiving to tune, so maybe in that sense a heavy arrow can fix a problem without other adjustments.

 

[Blockcaver]

I’ve shot a grizzly, a brown, a polar and around 14 black bears with my bow. No penetration issues with the 470 gr 4mm arrows I shoot at 272 fps….with mechanical 3-blade Spitfire 1.5” three blade heads on the polar bear and quite a few of the blacks.

Shot the grizzly with an Ulmer Edge 2-blade 1.5” head and the blood trail sucked. Brown was a 3-blade 1-1/8” Fixed blade Titanium ferrule Rocky Mt.

Sharp heads, mounted straight (no wobble), adequate vanes to control the arrow, great flight and a forgiving bow (accurate under field conditions) and you can kill bears as easy as deer in my experience.

 

[ddd-shooter]

I think that is something that is sometimes overlooked, or just not achieved. And I'm as guilty as anyone, fairly new to archery and not really good at tuning an arrow perfectly.

I am a self confessed Ranch Fairy Koolaid drinker, and have read a lot of the Ashby reports. But even the RF has said in multiple videos that he'd rather take a lighter arrow that's flying PERFECTLY over a heavier setup that just ticks the heavy weight, high foc boxes.

Watch the latest MeatEater YouTube video with Janis and the fairy. Janis pull up on a hog and shoots it for 25 instead of 20.
Wounds it, no recovery.

No mention at all that his overly heavy arrows led to needing both a 20 & 25 yard pin. A flatter shooting arrow probably would have at least resulted in a spinal shot and a kill, maybe a high double lung.

The ranch fairy has blinders to all except what fits his narrative.

 

[CentennialState]

Jake Kaminski, Jay Barrs and Levi Morgan....all disagree with the statement above....

And anyone saying, "But thats target" is totally missing the point....its accuracy...which is numero uno. I know Jay Barrs hunts....and so does Levi....

And then there are the guys that engineered, manufacture and test these arrows to death
Easton on FOC

[From Easton]
Generally, for target archery, an F.O.C. range of 7-15% indoors, and 10-15% outdoors, will fly with good stability, optimal momentum, and accurate trajectory from 0-90 meters. Past this range can cause vertical dispersion at longer distances, especially with lower overall mass arrows. Excessive FOC (especially past 20%) can also make finger release consistency much more critical, as the inertia of a too-heavy point can make the arrow over-react to slight differences in finger release. Arrows with lower FOC values (under 7-10%) will not track as well in outdoor windy conditions.

Easton recommends a 10-15% F.O.C. for hunting setups requiring greater momentum, and optimal accuracy – especially for longer distance shots.
___________

these guys are such a better source than some hack internet influencer. The very high FOC claims have never been proven with a bow and arrow....Ashby based his studies on Rubber bands and soda straws.

Thanks for the info and reference

 

[Big_wals]

Watch the latest MeatEater YouTube video with Janis and the fairy. Janis pull up on a hog and shoots it for 25 instead of 20.
Wounds it, no recovery.

No mention at all that his overly heavy arrows led to needing both a 20 & 25 yard pin. A flatter shooting arrow probably would have at least resulted in a spinal shot and a kill, maybe a high double lung.

The ranch fairy has blinders to all except what fits his narrative.

Not trying to turn this into a ranch fairy and ed ashby debate. But even tho I like the rf (partly just for the entertainment value), his videos and the ashby reports need to be taken with a grain of salt. The reports solely focus on what it takes to get an arrow to penetrate, because that was their main concern in 1990s Africa for dangerous game.

However, IMO, there's a difference between an arrow built for pure penetration and one built for hunting. I veiw the ashby reports as saying "ok, this is what you need to pass thru extremely heavy bone, every time." Then we all try build an arrow that conforms to that standard, while ALSO being light, ie flat shooting enough to try and avoid an issue with range like you mentioned.

Everyone just has a different opinion as to where that perfect mix of a penetrator arrow and a flat shooting, lightweight target arrow is. This archery thing wouldn't be any fun if we all did the exact same thing

 

[Dejhavu]

I like my set up to shoot 270-280ish fps, my 70lb bowtech solution is shooting my 486gr axis at 275fps, i use it for elk and moose, my 63lb pse nxt 31 shoots my 417gr at 275fps as well, this is my deer and black bear set up.

 

[BroccoliRob]

I like my set up to shoot 270-280ish fps, my 70lb bowtech solution is shooting my 486gr axis at 275fps, i use it for elk and moose, my 63lb pse nxt 31 shoots my 417gr at 275fps as well, this is my deer and black bear set up.

What's your draw length? Are you shooting the Solution in Comfort or Performance mode?

I've got a Solution as well, 27.5" DL and 70lbs in Comfort, my arrows are about 465gr. Haven't had access to a chrono, curious what speeds I may be getting.

 

[Beendare]

I’m certainly not going to argue against Easton so I will admit that I am probably wrong about it being more forgiving of an imperfect arrow flight. I don’t shoot competitively, I don't finger release, and I’m certainly not taking shots at animals from “longer distances” (90+ meters? I keep it under 40) so I’m not sure that most of the above applies to me.

I will say however that I saw a big difference in the penetration on the animals I killed this year vs the ones I killed last year after switching to heavier arrows with higher FOC. About 435gr and 14% last year to 550gr and 18% this year. No pass throughs on deer last year (3 arrows). All impacts were pass throughs this year (2).

Anecdotal, I know. But I’m personally going to keep doing what I’m doing.
I did say "take all that with a grain of salt" I'm not claiming to be an expert, just voicing my opinion based on my experience.

You went up 115gr In arrow weight….sure that arrow is going to penetrate better.

18% is close to the Easton range…not all that much higher for FOC…

 

[Beendare]

I agree with Billy Goat….

The silver lining on these internet influencers is they do get a guy thinking…rather than screw your head on and hunt.

They prey on the guys that don’t tune, shoot fast and light with big mech heads and don’t pay attention to arrow assembly…

Get a guy like thatshooting a heavy arrow with an efficient head and they think its a miracle.
My buddies shooting mid 400g arrows or heavier with any BH don’t have any issues namely because they tune their bow to the arrow, aren’t under spined and can shoot well.

 

[roosiebull]

The ranch fairy has blinders to all except what fits his narrative.

His popularity depends on it, even if he learns other things, he can no longer be objective, that’s the problem with niche influencers, they have to have bias or lose their audience, and the followers rely on the narrative remaining the same, that’s a societal issue, not just hunting, but it’s gross

Then you get someone who follows Troy, or Ashby, went from a mess of a setup to an Ashby arrow and it works, and then they proclaim to anyone who will listen and force it on those who don’t that it’s the way! Completely ignoring all of the factors involved, not to mention that a middle ground even exists.

The dumb and over simplistic answer of “a well tuned bow and sharp broadhead” is actually a pretty fair answer… I have been all over the board on arrows and heads, and the only magic with any of it is where the dang arrow hits, with VERY few exceptions. You almost have to try to build an arrow that won’t reliably make very short work of a big bull.

I use what makes sense to me for the hunting I do, and will never claim it’s best, because a lot of critters are killed with some pretty whack setups.

I think nerding out on arrow builds is largely a waste of time, better off shooting or scouting, or working so you can take time off to hunt… I see a lot of people obsessing over unimportant stuff and slacking on important stuff, but to each their own

 

[sneaky]

Watch the latest MeatEater YouTube video with Janis and the fairy. Janis pull up on a hog and shoots it for 25 instead of 20.
Wounds it, no recovery.

No mention at all that his overly heavy arrows led to needing both a 20 & 25 yard pin. A flatter shooting arrow probably would have at least resulted in a spinal shot and a kill, maybe a high double lung.

The ranch fairy has blinders to all except what fits his narrative.

Lol, you don't need a 20 and 25 pin for a heavy arrow unless you're shooting under 200fps. Heaviest arrows I've killed deer with were 720gr at 278fps. It was one pin out to 35 before I even thought about dialing. Janis screwed that shot, heavy arrow or not.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Lol, you don't need a 20 and 25 pin for a heavy arrow unless you're shooting under 200fps. Heaviest arrows I've killed deer with were 720gr at 278fps. It was one pin out to 35 before I even thought about dialing. Janis screwed that shot, heavy arrow or not.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

720 gr at 278 fps? You must have been shooting a very long draw length or very high draw weight (or both).

 

[Blockcaver]

123.6 ft-lbs of energy in sneaky's set-up! Elephant ready!

I happily hunt and kill "everything" with 472 gr arrows and 3-blade mechanicals with 77 ft-lbs of energy. My buddy with his long-bow generates about 40 ft-lbs of energy and is very successful using cut-on contact heads. And I'm not talking whitetails only in our cases.

 

[Beendare]

The 3 guys I know that killed Brown and Grizz bears shot arrows between 420-450g…one arrow kills.

My buddy a master guide in Ak that guides for GBears is a bowhunter….but he prefers taking rifle guys over bowhunters every day to Sunday. Its easier…and safer.

He doesn’t care so much about your arrow…and more concerned you can hold it together and make a good shot.

 

[Billy Goat]

The 3 guys I know that killed Brown and Grizz bears shot arrows between 420-450g…one arrow kills.

To be fair, it's clearly because they didn't know better.....




Where's those sarcastic buttons at.

 

[roosiebull]

I have a question, I have never seen a grizz or brown bear, but per size of animal, their smaller relatives, the black bear is an incredibly soft animal for their size, and vitals sit a little further back vs most critters.

Why do people suggest really heavy arrows and deep penetrating bullets out of magnum cartridges for brown/grizz? I would think their structure is very similar to a black bear just sized up?

Example-a 200# black bear is a softer critter than a 200# deer, and the aim point is further away from heavy bone structure

I would assume a 700# brown bear is softer than a 700# bull elk, is that wrong? If I was going brown bear hunting with my assumptions, I’d likely shoot the same arrow I would hunt everything else with, and would aim like I would with a black bear, which means not crowding any heavy bone

If I was rifle hunting them, I wouldn’t shoot a magnum and hard bullet, since again, I wouldn’t be aiming near heavy bone and would want a bullet that disrupts well, not make a narrow wound channel like most recommended brown bear setups.

Are they built that much differently than a black bear (relative to size?) Or are they like I assume, a scaled up black bear?

Do their vitals sit relatively further forward than a black bear’s? If I treated them as a scaled up version of a black bear, would I be wrong?

 

[Billy Goat]

I have a question, I have never seen a grizz or brown bear, but per size of animal, their smaller relatives, the black bear is an incredibly soft animal for their size, and vitals sit a little further back vs most critters.

Why do people suggest really heavy arrows and deep penetrating bullets out of magnum cartridges for brown/grizz? I would think their structure is very similar to a black bear just sized up?

Example-a 200# black bear is a softer critter than a 200# deer, and the aim point is further away from heavy bone structure

I would assume a 700# brown bear is softer than a 700# bull elk, is that wrong? If I was going brown bear hunting with my assumptions, I’d likely shoot the same arrow I would hunt everything else with, and would aim like I would with a black bear, which means not crowding any heavy bone

If I was rifle hunting them, I wouldn’t shoot a magnum and hard bullet, since again, I wouldn’t be aiming near heavy bone and would want a bullet that disrupts well, not make a narrow wound channel like most recommended brown bear setups.

Are they built that much differently than a black bear (relative to size?) Or are they like I assume, a scaled up black bear?

Do their vitals sit relatively further forward than a black bear’s? If I treated them as a scaled up version of a black bear, would I be wrong?

I assume it's because they are big and scary, therefore must be tougher.



I find in general a lot of predators aren't hard to kill, and react to pain more than a prey animal. I figured it was evolutionary, the prey animals that slowed from pain were picked off earlier. Livestock with a broken leg are a bitch because they seem to frequently not recognize it, they still try to walk on it. A dog with a broken leg flips out. Those are domestic animals, but I see similar reactions in wild.

 

[roosiebull]

I assume it's because they are big and scary, therefore must be tougher.



I find in general a lot of predators aren't hard to kill, and react to pain more than a prey animal. I figured it was evolutionary, the prey animals that slowed from pain were picked off earlier. Livestock with a broken leg are a bitch because they seem to frequently not recognize it, they still try to walk on it. A dog with a broken leg flips out. Those are domestic animals, but I see similar reactions in wild.

That’s what I’m guessing too, just curious if I’m missing something? And agree with you on predatory animals vs prey, exactly my experience