Arrow Selection Question - Preferred Point On?

[TX_Diver]

Setting up my new Poison Dart longbow and trying to figure out what arrows I want to shoot and where I want my point on to be.

Bow - 64" Longbow - 41 @28" and I draw about 30.5 so I'm guessing 47 at full draw for me. 7 3/4" brace height as recommended by Buddy. Shooting 3 under.

I have 4 full length (34") black eagle vintages to play with. 350, 400, 500, and 600 spine. All w/ a wrap and a 50gr brass insert. I also have some full length (31.75") Easton 6.5 340s from my recurve w/ 50gr brass insert.

1 - The Easton 6.5 340s fletched w/ 3 5" parabolic feathers fly good w/ a 200gr field point point and 50gr insert but my point on is around 33-34 yards and they have some serious drop out past that. Total arrow weight is about 567gr. 12.4gpp with 20% FOC (all those stats from 3 rivers spine calculator but they are probably close enough).

2 - Vintage 350 bareshaft is a little weak w/ the 200gr point and 50gr insert. I haven't cut it down yet but I'm betting it'd end up similar to the Easton 6.5s. At 31.75" it'd be 573gr total weight, 12.5gpp and 20% FOC per 3rivers. I'm assuming I'd have a similar point on.

3 - Vintage 400 bareshaft is just a little weak w/ a 150gr point and 50gr insert. I'm not sure how far I'd need to cut it down but assuming I end up around 31.75" for the sake of argument that'd be a 514gr arrow, 11.2gpp, and 17.4 % FOC.

Any suggestions from more experienced hunters on the above? Is pursuing a slightly flatter trajectory worth it based on the projected arrow stats of the 400s?

I'm tempted to go w/ the 400s as a flatter shooting arrow and smaller gaps seems beneficial, but 200gr total up front seems to be a little less than most people recommend also. So far I just have an archery deer tag but I'd be tempted to take this elk hunting too if I get a tag. I don't think I'd shoot an elk way out there with this setup, but I'd hate to have one at 30 and watch my arrow drop under it...

I could also get a lighter GPI shaft like the black eagle outlaws which would save me about 38gr over the comparable vintage shaft w/ the same components. That'd get me a 350 spine arrow w/ 250 up front around a total arrow weight of 535gr and 11.6 gpp. No idea on FOC but it'd probably be >20%. I don't really care about FOC unless it's so high or low that it's a problem.

One other item to note is I already have a bunch of of 150gr RMS 3 blade Cutthroat broadheads so my preference is to stick w/ a 150gr head (and add weight w/ the insert if more weight is needed up front)

 

[bowhuntercoop]

I have a tiny 25 inch draw length so take it for what’s it’s worth. I like my 35-37 point on for western hunts. I’ve shot a bunch of critters at that distance and have had no issues with 500 grain arrows at 43-48lb on my fingers with my recurves and long bows.

My stalker coyote is 47-48lb at 25 and I shot 500 to 650 grain arrows outta it last season. Ive settled in on 500 grains for the flatter trajectory and I got great penetration using a 2 blade or vpa 3 blade. Penetration was just as good at 10 gpp with an effective head compared to 12-15 gpp using the same heads. So why not drop arrow weight and get a flatter, more forgiving arrow set up. Not sure if either would go through a shoulder so I don’t aim for them haha.

With your draw length shoot whatever you want and have the most confidence in. You have more than enough energy for any of those arrow set ups. Good luck.

 

[Beendare]

IME, I shot a very heavy 13 GPP arrow for awhile....then I went to a 11 GPP plus arrow for a long time. Admittedly, I got sucked in by the prevailing trad wisdom a heavier arrow performs better.

Now I know better...its not total hogwash as its true a heavier arrow does penetrate better BUT....if you have hunted for any length of time one realizes...there are many factors that are important.
IMO, Additional arrow weight has more disadvantages than advantages.

A 2 blade BH is a penetrating monster....on any arrow....so the need for uber arrow weight is non issue. I have seen trad bows get noisy down in the 8GPP range....and if a guy is hunting jumpy critters, bow noise matters.

I like the 9-10GPP range myself. My hunt arrow this year will be right at 9gpp. I've tested/tuned 2 arrows now in my 50# ILF at 30.5" DL.
31 3/8" 300's, 10.3gpi, 75g inserts, 140g heads TAW 499g
31 3/8" 350's, 8.something gpi, std insert, 100g head TAW 391G

I was tempted to go with the 391g arrow that tunes in my setup- these are the 2 black arrows here next to the woodgrain 499ers, 30y


If ever there was an illustration of what trajectory can do for you...this one is pretty good. We know this of course otherwise why would every 3D guy want to max out their speed.

Point on wise, That one 11gpp setup I had was developed for a 45y PO specifically for one spot I hunted...and I ended up using it for many years.

As you probably know, a guy can be very accurate with these trad bows on shots right around your PO- its like having a pin. The top Trad 3D guys shooting those courses with a 30y max...all setup for a 30y PO.

We can learn from that, setup for a PO thats a little further than you figure your max shot distance will be. This- plus better trajectory- gives you tighter gaps at the shorter mid range distances.Sometimes, it just doesn't work out that way....and it is what it is.

No matter which aiming system you use, A 1/2" gap at 20y is going to be way more accurate than a 1 1/4" gap at 20y. I've proved that to myself.

Guaranteed I get blasted by the Ashby crowd that shoots whitetails at 15y with a 700g arrow. I don't have the luxury on the hunts I do of always setting up for those very close shots. Try that on Kodiak Island....leave your tree stand at home- grin.

Hope that helps...best of luck with your new bow.

 

[TX_Diver]

IME, I shot a very heavy 13 GPP arrow for awhile....then I went to a 11 GPP plus arrow for a long time. Admittedly, I got sucked in by the prevailing trad wisdom a heavier arrow performs better.

Now I know better...its not total hogwash as its true a heavier arrow does penetrate better BUT....if you have hunted for any length of time one realizes...there are many factors that are important.
IMO, Additional arrow weight has more disadvantages than advantages.

A 2 blade BH is a penetrating monster....on any arrow....so the need for uber arrow weight is non issue. I have seen trad bows get noisy down in the 8GPP range....and if a guy is hunting jumpy critters, bow noise matters.

I like the 9-10GPP range myself. My hunt arrow this year will be right at 9gpp. I've tested/tuned 2 arrows now in my 50# ILF at 30.5" DL.
31 3/8" 300's, 10.3gpi, 75g inserts, 140g heads TAW 499g
31 3/8" 350's, 8.something gpi, std insert, 100g head TAW 391G

I was tempted to go with the 391g arrow that tunes in my setup- these are the 2 black arrows here next to the woodgrain 499ers, 30y
View attachment 560965

If ever there was an illustration of what trajectory can do for you...this one is pretty good. We know this of course otherwise why would every 3D guy want to max out their speed.

Point on wise, That one 11gpp setup I had was developed for a 45y PO specifically for one spot I hunted...and I ended up using it for many years.

As you probably know, a guy can be very accurate with these trad bows on shots right around your PO- its like having a pin. The top Trad 3D guys shooting those courses with a 30y max...all setup for a 30y PO.

We can learn from that, setup for a PO thats a little further than you figure your max shot distance will be. This- plus better trajectory- gives you tighter gaps at the shorter mid range distances.Sometimes, it just doesn't work out that way....and it is what it is.

No matter which aiming system you use, A 1/2" gap at 20y is going to be way more accurate than a 1 1/4" gap at 20y. I've proved that to myself.

Guaranteed I get blasted by the Ashby crowd that shoots whitetails at 15y with a 700g arrow. I don't have the luxury on the hunts I do of always setting up for those very close shots. Try that on Kodiak Island....leave your tree stand at home- grin.

Hope that helps...best of luck with your new bow.

That makes sense. I'm leaning towards just using the 350 outlaws to get a little flatter trajectory. 535gr is still a reasonably heavy arrow and should give me a little further point on than the vintages.

I'll call RMS gear tomorrow and chat with them on the phone before ordering from them. They're always extremely helpful too.

Appreciate the input!

 

[Beendare]

That makes sense. I'm leaning towards just using the 350 outlaws to get a little flatter trajectory. 535gr is still a reasonably heavy arrow and should give me a little further point on than the vintages.

I'll call RMS gear tomorrow and chat with them on the phone before ordering from them. They're always extremely helpful too.

Appreciate the input!

No problem.

Be advised, That heavy arrow stuff runs deep with a lot of trad guys. Not so with a lot of the top trad shooters in 3D and such.

 

[GLB]

I prefer a 25-30 yard PO. I mostly shoot longbows and run on average 11.5 grain per pound between my bows.

 

[Shawn Hultquist]

I have two setups as well. 11.5 ish for shorter tree stand hunting opportunities inside 20 yards. When I hunt out west I drop down to 10ish arrow setup for that flatter trajectory and longer shots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Beendare]

FWIW, its not just PO…but gaps are important too. Bigger gap is less accurate. The heavy 11g plus arrows I was shooting before (albeit with a lighter bow too) had a 1” gap at 20y.

I say this because I just set up a lighter arrow in my 50# recurve and i’m already liking it.



My first group at 30y pictured using a 1/4” gap. The bare shaft is showing a little weak here ( lefty) but not bad for 30y First group.

My 20y gap is about the same. I’m still feeling it out…its the first time I have shot this arrow. Accmos 6.2mm, (about 9 gpp) 31 3/8” std insert, 125g point- tune is real close. I think it weighed 435g….my 300’s were 499g.
Point it, I think these tighter gaps are helping me to be more accurate at all distances Inside my PO.

I haven’t gotten to PO on these yet…but pretty flat shooting.

 

[TX_Diver]

Called RMS today and ordered some 350 outlaws and 400 vintages along with some 50 and 100gr points and a few of the insert weights that screw into the back of the insets. They were extremely helpful and we’re going to cut some shafts to 31.5 and leave the rest at 32” for me to cut down later.

Will update next week after messing around with it a bit more. For now just shooting the 6.5 340s and having fun with the new bow.

 

[TX_Diver]

FWIW, its not just PO…but gaps are important too. Bigger gap is less accurate. The heavy 11g plus arrows I was shooting before (albeit with a lighter bow too) had a 1” gap at 20y.

I say this because I just set up a lighter arrow in my 50# recurve and i’m already liking it.
View attachment 561662


My first group at 30y pictured using a 1/4” gap. The bare shaft is showing a little weak here ( lefty) but not bad for 30y First group.

My 20y gap is about the same. I’m still feeling it out…its the first time I have shot this arrow. Accmos 6.2mm, (about 9 gpp) 31 3/8” std insert, 125g point- tune is real close. I think it weighed 435g….my 300’s were 499g.
Point it, I think these tighter gaps are helping me to be more accurate at all distances Inside my PO.

I haven’t gotten to PO on these yet…but pretty flat shooting.

I’m assuming that a farther PO typically correlates to smaller gaps?

Do you look at gaps in terms of measurement at the point? I think In terms of holding 15” low or 8” low or 8” high etc. at the target. wondering if I try thinking about it relative to the point if that will help or confuse me haha.

 

[Beendare]

I’m assuming that a farther PO typically correlates to smaller gaps?

Do you look at gaps in terms of measurement at the point? I think In terms of holding 15” low or 8” low or 8” high etc. at the target. wondering if I try thinking about it relative to the point if that will help or confuse me haha.

A further PO typically makes for a higher arc and larger gaps…but arrow speed dictates those gaps as well. A slower heavier arrow has more arc which creates bigger gaps at long PO but can also shorten your PO at shorter distances.

Sighting down your arrow is inherently more accurate, thats why the String walkers and fixed crawl guys use this system, they are so much more accurate. ( though it can create issues with arrow flight when you add BHs)

You are using “ pick a point” as your aiming system which is essentially a gap but at the target not at the tip of the arrow. I momentarily set my gap on the draw then while focusing on the target maintain the gap in my peripheral vision- many ways to skin a cat on this aiming.

A guy can adjust his PO by adding/ subtracting arrow weight…along with arrow length and your anchor on your face. High anchor…. or longer arrow….or heavier arrow = shorter PO.
Edited for clarity;
Example; the 46# recurve, 553g arrow setup I used for years had a PO of 45y with the highest part of the arc at the 1/2 way point 22.5y of a little over an inch. This creates a big gap= less accurate at normal bowhunting range.

Even if you don’t gap shoot, that gap matters. Smaller = better. Its the reason the 3 under guys (vs split) are generally more accurate at 20,30y.

My 50# recurve I just finished arrows for has a 40y PO but the 8.7gpp arrow makes my gaps at normal bowhunting ranges small; my gap at 20y is 3/8”, gap at 30y is 1/4”- tighter gaps and its a tad more accurate.

Hope that helps to clarify.

 

[Solitude]

So for whatever it’s worth, assuming you shoot gap, pick up a deer sized 3D.

1-Figure out your point on distance, where you hit vitals every shot.

2-Figure out what distance, when you lay your point/BH on the back of the target, you drop into the vitals/kill every shot.

3-Figure out the distance where, when you hold at bottom of the chest, your arrow raises into vitals/kill.

Given the above distances, you have your known kill zone and will become confident in those ranges.

Each archers consistent anchor/form is different, so you may need to adjust your shots for super close or distant shots, but you will learn you confident kill distance with very little adjustment real quick IMO.

Helps too when you can’t range on 3D or don’t have time on animals.

By the way, I am not here to take credit for this technique, and there are many others out there, but this has worked for me.

 

[bisblue]

I try to keep arrows in the basic recommendation from trad lab. 10-12 GPI and FOC %15-18%.

I love a point on around 30-33 as a western hunter. Then I shoot instinctive for shorter shots where the gap gets bigger.

 

[TX_Diver]

Good info. Thanks!

Arrows I ordered should be delivered today. Will be out of town for a bit so may be next week before I get back to it, but I'll post up my results soon.

Have some outlaw 350s and vintage 400s coming w/ a few different weight inserts to try.

 

[GLB]

So for whatever it’s worth, assuming you shoot gap, pick up a deer sized 3D.

1-Figure out your point on distance, where you hit vitals every shot.

2-Figure out what distance, when you lay your point/BH on the back of the target, you drop into the vitals/kill every shot.

3-Figure out the distance where, when you hold at bottom of the chest, your arrow raises into vitals/kill.

Given the above distances, you have your known kill zone and will become confident in those ranges.

Each archers consistent anchor/form is different, so you may need to adjust your shots for super close or distant shots, but you will learn you confident kill distance with very little adjustment real quick IMO.

Helps too when you can’t range on 3D or don’t have time on animals.

By the way, I am not here to take credit for this technique, and there are many others out there, but this has worked for me.

That is exactly how I do it.

 

[TX_Diver]

Been playing with a variety of arrows and point weights the last few weeks. Meant to only try 2 but the 6.5s I already had shot alright so I threw them in the mix too.

Ultimately I got the following to shoot pretty well.

Vintage 400 w/ 175 up front, Outlaw 350s w/ 220 up front, and Easton 6.5 340s w/ 250 up front. Specs below. All arrows in the ~31.5" to 32.5" range.

Wanting to shoot 150gr heads since I have a bunch rules out the Vintage 400s (unless I go to an aluminum insert but I'd rather just stick with brass).

The Easton 6.5s are great but they have a point on around 33-34 which is a bit closer than I'd prefer so that leaves the Outlaw 350s w/ a 50gr brass insert, 20gr Victory screw in back weight, and a 150gr head. RMS Gear had all of the victory back weights on sale a few weeks back so I grabbed a bunch to play with.

Weights and FOCs approximate as some arrows were bareshafts but had a different wrap on the back.

 

[TX_Diver]

With broadheads the Easton 6.5s don't fly very well so they're out. Both the vintages and the outlaws fly pretty well.

New question though...

I did all of this and then realized I never checked brace height again after my initial setup (7 3/4")... Suggested starting point was 7 3/4" by Buddy. I'm at about 7 1/4" now. Any suggestions?

I'm thinking of putting it back to 7 3/4" but if that changes the tune to where an arrow doesn't fly well I'll just drop it back down a bit til I'm good again. Am I missing anything there?

 

[bowhuntercoop]

1/2 is a pile of movement for brace height. If those arrows are stiff at 7 1/4 then it will help to increase the brace height, if they are borderline weak it will make them much worse and the bow a lot louder.

 

[TX_Diver]

1/2 is a pile of movement for brace height. If those arrows are stiff at 7 1/4 then it will help to increase the brace height, if they are borderline weak it will make them much worse and the bow a lot louder.

I think the outlaws and vintages are closer to weak so I may just be rolling with a 7 1/4” brace height for the year unless buddy recommends against that.

The eastons are stiff so that’s a backup option too still

 

[Coopsdaddy]

Great stuff!