Arken EPL-4 4-16x44mm Q&A

[rfroese]

What has your testing shown and what equipment are you using?

Would you like for me to list all of the scopes and rifles I have used or are you just being facetious? I came by this information by researching the topic more so during my own frustrations with none of my rifles holding a perfect zero like I wanted during a time in my life when I was reloading and shooting a lot.

 

[bojangles808]

Would you like for me to list all of the scopes and rifles I have used or are you just being facetious? I came by this information by researching the topic more so during my own frustrations with none of my rifles holding a perfect zero like I wanted during a time in my life when I was reloading and shooting a lot.

3 shot zeros?

 

[rfroese]

3 shot zeros?

No I prefer 1 shot zeros. My level of precision is so good I only need one...

 

[T_Widdy]

Would you like for me to list all of the scopes and rifles I have used or are you just being facetious? I came by this information by researching the topic more so during my own frustrations with none of my rifles holding a perfect zero like I wanted during a time in my life when I was reloading and shooting a lot.

Yes your setups would be helpful to rule out if it could be equipment related. I just want to know what your results were by the test you have done. I have had wandering zero’s and the more testing I can do to learn the better

 

[Wiscgunner]

I understand that completely. I initially got into this exact topic years ago because I was having issues with my zeros constantly being off by a few clicks even though I knew I hadn't bumped the rifle or done anything to cause it to lose zero. Also, I know there are plenty of youtubers that do everything for content. Having said that, if you watch and research enough, you can learn to wade through the BS and find quality information.

Took several research classes in graduate school and had to do tons of research on my own practicum for college. Learning to wade through the nonsense and find the important information is relevant no matter what topic you are trying to learn about.

I am not a youtuber, avid competition shooter or anything like that. I know a few guys who are but what I am is a bit of a nerd and I love to research as well as enjoy reloading and shooting a bunch. In the past few years I have done more hunting than reloading but I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the intricacies of accuracy and precision when I did some small time competitions and handloading.

Yes lighting changes point of aim but it is very slight. Really only noticeable at long range, not 100yrds.
Here is video done at Winnequah Gun Club by Scott Park from Vortex. He is a very experienced shooter. While I admit I have not watched the videos you have linked (yet), this video measures the effect at 1000yrds.


Yes temperature and other environmental attributes affect your zero but this is why we zero high velocity rifles at 100yrds where we can start to see details in our groups but environments do not have a noticeable effect.

FYI
In rifle shooting, and by that I mean shooting rifles beyond pistol distances, Wind is considered a separately adjusted for factor than Environmentals (temp, humidity, elevation…). While Environmentals change slowly, Wind changes rapidly as does Distance.


I would suggest shooting more in the Real World and less getting lost in the weeds of Theory. All too often novice shooters whether they are a keyboard snipers or simply a new shooter make mountains out of ant hills because they don’t know better.

IF you shoot only at the same range and same distance you might remotely come close to adjusting your dope for light conditions. Now the POA change really just gets lost and overshadowed by wind call error, SD/ES of ammo, BC change from cartridge to cartridge, cheek pressure, trigger press, body position and of course shooters wobble zone.

In Field Shooting, which is the primary on this forum, worrying about lighting is like worrying about the bug splatter on your windshield reducing gas mileage while your 500lb cousin waves his underwear out the window at the rest of his family in the trailer you are towing.

 

[rfroese]

Yes lighting changes point of aim but it is very slight. Really only noticeable at long range, not 100yrds.
Here is video done at Winnequah Gun Club by Scott Park from Vortex. He is a very experienced shooter. While I admit I have not watched the videos you have linked (yet), this video measures the effect at 1000yrds.


Yes temperature and other environmental attributes affect your zero but this is why we zero high velocity rifles at 100yrds where we can start to see details in our groups but environments do not have a noticeable effect.

FYI
In rifle shooting, and by that I mean shooting rifles beyond pistol distances, Wind is considered a separately adjusted for factor than Environmentals (temp, humidity, elevation…). While Environmentals change slowly, Wind changes rapidly as does Distance.


I would suggest shooting more in the Real World and less getting lost in the weeds of Theory. All too often novice shooters whether they are a keyboard snipers or simply a new shooter make mountains out of ant hills because they don’t know better.

IF you shoot only at the same range and same distance you might remotely come close to adjusting your dope for light conditions. Now the POA change really just gets lost and overshadowed by wind call error, SD/ES of ammo, BC change from cartridge to cartridge, cheek pressure, trigger press, body position and of course shooters wobble zone.

In Field Shooting, which is the primary on this forum, worrying about lighting is like worrying about the bug splatter on your windshield reducing gas mileage while your 500lb cousin waves his underwear out the window at the rest of his family in the trailer you are towing.

LMAO

The video you just posted proves my point exactly. The video claims a .4 mil shift in less than an hour.

.4 mils at 1000 yards is still .4 mils at 100 yards... Which equates to about 1.44 inches at 100 yards... Which is 14.4 inches at 1000 yards. WHICH IS EXACTLY THE POINT I WAS MAKING. Seems a bit more than bug splatter or whatever other nonsense you are talking about.

Also, just because I am curious... What makes you think I am a novice shooter? Post count lol?

 

[Wiscgunner]

LMAO

The video you just posted proves my point exactly. The video claims a .4 mil shift in less than an hour.

.4 mils at 1000 yards is still .4 mils at 100 yards... Which equates to about 1.44 inches at 100 yards... Which is 14.4 inches at 1000 yards. WHICH IS EXACTLY THE POINT I WAS MAKING. Seems a bit more than bug splatter or whatever other nonsense you are talking about.

Also, just because I am curious... What makes you think I am a novice shooter? Post count lol?

Well you clearly missed the point and are proving yourself to be a novice shooter through your lack of knowledge and understanding physics and shooting yet air of superiority despite the ignorance. Perhaps, instead of coming here to lecture everyone in the one new tid bit your learned, you could ASK instead of tell.

.4mils of POA shift at 1000 yards is not .4mils at 100yards… in this case…Period. This lack of understanding is what makes me know you are a novice shooter.

I’ll break it down for you so you can perhaps see how unimportant light change is in reality. Air is simply a liquid that is very spacious. Like more solid forms of matter, it refracts and reflects light. For a novice rifle shooter such as yourself, this means the depth of the liquid, in this case 1000yards deep has an accumulative affect. In other words, light refracted thru 1000 yards of air is more than thru 100 yards of air. So no, .4 1000yrds does not mean .4 at 100yrds.

Now if you were an experienced shooter you would understand this because you would have learned to deal with and use Mirage. Mirage is the same thing as seen in the video I attached. Light bending and lying to you. A day without mirage is lije looking thru one pane of glass while mirage is like looking thru multiple panes of glass. Exactly like looking through still water or turbulent water…still looking thru water and that object will not be where you think it is based upon the image your eyeball is receiving.

Now this multilevel refraction we call mirage is not as constant as unmoving or over distance but it does behave similarly. Air refraction from heat differentials can be the entire distance resulting in a large shift in Target image or it can me just in from of the s ope from Suppressor heat causing less of a shift or it could be just in tge area near the target, causing even less shift. Light shift is like wind in this way, A .4mil shift over 1000yrds is not equal to .4mil shift at 100yrds. Wind closer to the shooter has more affect on the bullet than wind at the target but wind across the entire distance has the most effect.

You will be hard pressed to find simply light shift thru still air to cause a .4mil shift at 100yrds. Mirage could certainly do this however if the heat differential is large enough and close enough to the eye ie suppressor.

Light and Wind accumulate error over distance and should not be confused with a static error from the shooter or equipment that would be linear.

I challenge you to go test this out and report back with your data such as heat differential, distance from eye of heat differential, length of heat differential, moisture content of the air at each measurement of light angle thru out your shooting, what type of light bulb you used to simulate moving clouds and stars, pictures of your fixtured action to avoid shooter error, 30round groups at each change of the light position to insure statistical relevance among other things. I assume you will do this testing indoors in order to control the variables?

There are a lot of variable to shooting precision rifles and adding distance to this mix but light changes of POA, while real, like trying to dial out elevation to a 1/4 of a click. Yes its there but no it isn’t relevant to reality.

 

[rfroese]

Don't you love it when the same guy calling you an idiot proves your point for you... LOL.

Well you clearly missed the point and are proving yourself to be a novice shooter through your lack of knowledge and understanding physics and shooting yet air of superiority despite the ignorance. Perhaps, instead of coming here to lecture everyone in the one new tid bit your learned, you could ASK instead of tell.

.4mils of POA shift at 1000 yards is not .4mils at 100yards… in this case…Period. This lack of understanding is what makes me know you are a novice shooter.

I’ll break it down for you so you can perhaps see how unimportant light change is in reality. Air is simply a liquid that is very spacious. Like more solid forms of matter, it refracts and reflects light. For a novice rifle shooter such as yourself, this means the depth of the liquid, in this case 1000yards deep has an accumulative affect. In other words, light refracted thru 1000 yards of air is more than thru 100 yards of air. So no, .4 1000yrds does not mean .4 at 100yrds.

Now if you were an experienced shooter you would understand this because you would have learned to deal with and use Mirage. Mirage is the same thing as seen in the video I attached. Light bending and lying to you. A day without mirage is lije looking thru one pane of glass while mirage is like looking thru multiple panes of glass. Exactly like looking through still water or turbulent water…still looking thru water and that object will not be where you think it is based upon the image your eyeball is receiving.

Now this multilevel refraction we call mirage is not as constant as unmoving or over distance but it does behave similarly. Air refraction from heat differentials can be the entire distance resulting in a large shift in Target image or it can me just in from of the s ope from Suppressor heat causing less of a shift or it could be just in tge area near the target, causing even less shift. Light shift is like wind in this way, A .4mil shift over 1000yrds is not equal to .4mil shift at 100yrds. Wind closer to the shooter has more affect on the bullet than wind at the target but wind across the entire distance has the most effect.

You will be hard pressed to find simply light shift thru still air to cause a .4mil shift at 100yrds. Mirage could certainly do this however if the heat differential is large enough and close enough to the eye ie suppressor.

Light and Wind accumulate error over distance and should not be confused with a static error from the shooter or equipment that would be linear.

I challenge you to go test this out and report back with your data such as heat differential, distance from eye of heat differential, length of heat differential, moisture content of the air at each measurement of light angle thru out your shooting, what type of light bulb you used to simulate moving clouds and stars, pictures of your fixtured action to avoid shooter error, 30round groups at each change of the light position to insure statistical relevance among other things. I assume you will do this testing indoors in order to control the variables?

There are a lot of variable to shooting precision rifles and adding distance to this mix but light changes of POA, while real, like trying to dial out elevation to a 1/4 of a click. Yes its there but no it isn’t relevant to reality.

Interesting, you called me out, now saying I am commenting with some air of superiority and yet you are the one calling someone you don't know from Adam a novice because their post count is low. ROFL....

I didn't say that light only was causing .4 mil shift. Apparently, reading comprehension isn't a skill of yours. I was merely pointing to the fact that the video claimed there was a .4mil shift at 1000 yards. And yes .4 mils at 1000 yards is still .4 mils at 100 yards.

You state that ".4 mils of POA shift at 1,000 yards does not equal .4 mils at 100 yards." This is true for some factors like wind, but irrelevant for light refraction. A .4 mil shift caused by refraction at 1,000 yards would correspond to the same angular shift at 100 yards, translating to a smaller displacement (~1.44 MOA or ~1.5 inches). You dismiss light shift at 100 yards as irrelevant and challenge testing its effects. However, these effects are already well-understood and measurable. Numerous studies and practical experiences in precision shooting have documented the impacts of suppressor mirage, atmospheric gradients, and optical alignment errors on POA shifts at distances as short as 50-100 yards.

For example: Suppressor Heat: Shooters regularly report vertical or lateral POA shifts due to localized heat near the scope. These shifts can exceed .2-.4 mils in extreme conditions. Parallax Error and Heat Differential: Improper parallax settings compounded by refraction near the optic can create measurable shifts even at short ranges.

In controlled environments, light refraction (especially suppressor mirage or environmental heat gradients) can and does cause POA shifts noticeable at shorter ranges. It’s not about the accumulation over distance but rather the localized effects of bending light near the shooter or the target.

Did I say that if you set up this exact same scenario that you would see a .4 mil shift at 100 yards? No I did not. I only said the video proves the point I was making in that there are many factors to causing a POI shift on a rifle.

Sure there are other factors involved. Never said there weren't. Scott even commented in the video itself that he wasn't even exactly sure what was causing the POA shift. Maybe he figured that out later who knows. Don't know the guy.

You are the one who devolved into calling me a novice and made some stupid comment about bug splatter all the while making my point for me that visual and optical differences including light refraction can cause a shift in POA. Forgive me for coming onto a forum and questioning the almighty super moderator and his tests.

Last question before I go back into my hole where the novices are that know nothing compared to a bunch of forum experts... Are you telling me that the mirage on different days of shooting can not cause a .1-.2 mil shift on a zero? We are talking about less than an inch.

 

[Wiscgunner]

Don't you love it when the same guy calling you an idiot proves your point for you... LOL.

Interesting, you called me out, now saying I am commenting with some air of superiority and yet you are the one calling someone you don't know from Adam a novice because their post count is low. ROFL....

I didn't say that light only was causing .4 mil shift. Apparently, reading comprehension isn't a skill of yours. I was merely pointing to the fact that the video claimed there was a .4mil shift at 1000 yards. And yes .4 mils at 1000 yards is still .4 mils at 100 yards.

You state that ".4 mils of POA shift at 1,000 yards does not equal .4 mils at 100 yards." This is true for some factors like wind, but irrelevant for light refraction. A .4 mil shift caused by refraction at 1,000 yards would correspond to the same angular shift at 100 yards, translating to a smaller displacement (~1.44 MOA or ~1.5 inches). You dismiss light shift at 100 yards as irrelevant and challenge testing its effects. However, these effects are already well-understood and measurable. Numerous studies and practical experiences in precision shooting have documented the impacts of suppressor mirage, atmospheric gradients, and optical alignment errors on POA shifts at distances as short as 50-100 yards.

For example: Suppressor Heat: Shooters regularly report vertical or lateral POA shifts due to localized heat near the scope. These shifts can exceed .2-.4 mils in extreme conditions. Parallax Error and Heat Differential: Improper parallax settings compounded by refraction near the optic can create measurable shifts even at short ranges.

In controlled environments, light refraction (especially suppressor mirage or environmental heat gradients) can and does cause POA shifts noticeable at shorter ranges. It’s not about the accumulation over distance but rather the localized effects of bending light near the shooter or the target.

Did I say that if you set up this exact same scenario that you would see a .4 mil shift at 100 yards? No I did not. I only said the video proves the point I was making in that there are many factors to causing a POI shift on a rifle.

Sure there are other factors involved. Never said there weren't. Scott even commented in the video itself that he wasn't even exactly sure what was causing the POA shift. Maybe he figured that out later who knows. Don't know the guy.

You are the one who devolved into calling me a novice and made some stupid comment about bug splatter all the while making my point for me that visual and optical differences including light refraction can cause a shift in POA. Forgive me for coming onto a forum and questioning the almighty super moderator and his tests.

Last question before I go back into my hole where the novices are that know nothing compared to a bunch of forum experts... Are you telling me that the mirage on different days of shooting can not cause a .1-.2 mil shift on a zero? We are talking about less than an inch.

1) have no idea how many post you have and don’t care and still haven’t looked. It is irrelevant to your now apparent lack of experience.

2) you identified as a novice after my initial statement “ All too often novice shooters whether they are a keyboard snipers or simply a new shooter make mountains out of ant hills because they don’t know better.”

3) you inexperience is apparent not only in precision rifle but in reading. Had you actually read my post above you would have needed to bring up my apparent lack of understanding of mirage since I included it as a separate variable.

4) you are the one that came to a scope test review discussion thread and said “sun hitting the scope at different angles which can cause up to .1-.2 mil shifts as well.” In reference to 100yrd accuracy.

5) you also conflated wind at 100yrds with Environmentals another novice mistske.

6) you also go on to mumble about powder sensitivity and other small variables. Not that these contributing factors don’t add up but it shows to your lack reading/ comprehension of the actual scope review and how it is performed. If you had precision rifle experience and actually read about how the variables are drastically reduced in the testing you never would have brought them up. So either you didn’t read the actual review or you don’t actually understand these variable outside a text book.

All of this is quite normal and ok as a beginner to learn first that these things exists and foremost how much they actually matter. Please, for your sake, go back and actually read the testing protocols. Then read your claims of error. Then give a meaningful example of that error. Educate the world but most importantly, educate yourself.

How much shift in temperature is needed for powder stability to shift the zero at 100yards and be measurable inside a 30rounds true zero? So how many degrees of temperature change on the ammo used in the testing would result in noticeable shift of the group?

How many degrees does the sun have to move across the sky to equate a change in POA to affect a 30rnd group true zero?

What position in the sky does the sun have the least affect / most affect?

Is your contribution to the community suggestion to only do optical tests on the same day of the year at the same time with the same atmospheric lighting or are you going to provide your time and efforts to track this error and inform the community how better they could compensate? Perhaps all the ballistics apps could put you solar calendar data in as a variable for us to enter?

Perhaps you will repeat the video with a simultaneous recording thru 2 transparent targets, one at 100yrds and one at 1000yrds to see if liquid refraction thru the air is linear like a static error or non-linear like a dynamic error such as mirage or wind.


I look forward to the data you collect from your sunlight testing. Especially how to factor it into my dope. Mirage is fairly predictable but Sunlight I need to work on. I’ll be shooting in January 18th from 9am until about 3pm. Can you tell me at (43.3445664, -88.9340100) during those times what my dope will change? It is expected to be 28degrees with 15mph winds, cloudy with low humidity. THIS would really school me and actually be very much appreciated.


Thank you for your help.

PS. Thank you for restating much of what was in my second post as proof of my personal error. Really reinforces my point…again.

PS some more: being a novice or asking for help is not a weakness or an insult but it is a fact of life.

 

[rfroese]

Good grief... What a rambling load of nonsense... I'll let you get back to being an expert buddy. Enjoy your forum.

 

[Shortschaf]

Here is video done at Winnequah Gun Club by Scott Park from Vortex.

Seems like the best way to move forward is to perform the same triggercam test on a scope aimed at 100 yard target

I am frankly shocked it moved 0.4MIL at 1000 yards

 

[gbflyer]

Good grief... What a rambling load of nonsense... I'll let you get back to being an expert buddy. Enjoy your forum.

Don’t give up. There are a lot of good folks and good info here. If you have some be prepared to share your own stuff. Links don’t cut it with this crowd. I happen to agree with you about environmental factors but it may be POI that gets effected, not the zero. Maybe.

 

[Formidilosus]

Last question before I go back into my hole where the novices are that know nothing compared to a bunch of forum experts... Are you telling me that the mirage on different days of shooting can not cause a .1-.2 mil shift on a zero? We are talking about less than an inch.

Why didn't changing light conditions effect the zero for 3,000 to over 40,000 rounds and years of use on NF SHV, NXS, NX8, ATACR; Trijicon Credo, and Tenmiles; S&B Klassic, Maven RS1.2’s, SWFA fixed 6x, 10x, 3-9x, 3-15x, and 5-20x, Zeiss LRP S3, Minix ZP5 5-25x, Leupold Mark 4 fixed 6x and 10x M3A’s, etc, etc? They are/were on the same exact rifles, shot side by side with scopes that do/did lose zero?

If changing light conductions cause it- it would cause it with all scopes. But interestingly- “changing light conditions” only seems to effect scopes that also lose zero from impacts….