Anyone paying attention to Michigan?

Age has to do with it because if you weren’t hunting 1980-2005 you don’t know how good it was. I have always hunted in Michigan north of US-10 all the way to Wisconsin or Canada. I also hunt one of the draw hunts in Zone 3 and it is also pathetic compared to what it used to be.

Private land SLP hunters should not be making rules for the poor souls that have to hunt public. It’s a different world.

I’ve hunted whitetail in Ohio, Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Wyoming, Montana, Alberta, and Saskatchewan…Michigan deer are not managed properly, the biologists have no say nor the tools they need. It is all politics and revenue. Maximize license sales; the only reason there is any interest from the government is license sales are in the dumper.
 
I totally agree with yer last paragraph. I turn 50 this year and have been hunting Michigan whitetail since I was old enough to walk pretty much. I think there definitely needs to be different rules for southern and northern Michigan. The deer populations isn’t even close to the same. Two different worlds. Pretty soon somebody will come on here and make a statement about trolls….. oh wait.
 
Age has to do with it because if you weren’t hunting 1980-2005 you don’t know how good it was. I have always hunted in Michigan north of US-10 all the way to Wisconsin or Canada. I also hunt one of the draw hunts in Zone 3 and it is also pathetic compared to what it used to be.

Private land SLP hunters should not be making rules for the poor souls that have to hunt public. It’s a different world.

I’ve hunted whitetail in Ohio, Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Wyoming, Montana, Alberta, and Saskatchewan…Michigan deer are not managed properly, the biologists have no say nor the tools they need. It is all politics and revenue. Maximize license sales; the only reason there is any interest from the government is license sales are in the dumper.
Been hunting since the mid 90's (sorry, only 39)
and also hunt and live north of US-10.

You said deer herd was way low. We are holding around 1.75-2 million deer which we have for the last two decades (maybe a few years where we hit 1.5). How is it then our herd numbers are way low?

That is all I disagreed with. Herd population. Not density locations or policy and politics. I agree with you on all of that.
 
Who the heck came up with any rifle for the southern zone. These people have any idea how far a rifle bullet can travel. Guess I can start using my 358 Norma mag or my 270 Weatherby mag around Lapeer. Unbelievable!
Straight wall cartridge bullets travel a damn long ways as well. Everyone needs to stop shooting at things that don't have a backstop.
 
When they COUNTED deer we topped off at 1.3 million in the heyday. There isn’t half of that now. The DNR has NO IDEA how many deer there are in the state and have no way to count or accurately estimate it any more. Watch the NRC meeting from yesterday, they admitted exactly that!

And all those hunts in all those other states, every time, were TONS better than any season I’ve had in Michigan since the early 2000s and only the Canada ones were guided. All public land DIY…you would think I could manage the same thing right here but I must lose all my abilities close to home 🧐
 
The fact is our DNR has mismanaged deer, pheasants, salmon, moose, and elk so poorly it’s hard to even fathom screwing things up so consistently.

Let’s not forget the repeated graying reintroductions and absurd wolf numbers. Heck they wouldn’t even admit to mountain lions in the lower until recently.

These changes are perfect but at least it’s something.
 
Straight wall cartridge bullets travel a damn long ways as well. Everyone needs to stop shooting at things that don't have a backstop.
100%. Under practical field conditions, there's so little difference in the safety margin between the newer straight walls and most traditional bottle neck rounds, and the ricochet risk is usually greater from the larger straight walled rounds.
 
100%. Under practical field conditions, there's so little difference in the safety margin between the newer straight walls and most traditional bottle neck rounds, and the ricochet risk is usually greater from the larger straight walled rounds.
There's little difference between a bullet going 3,000 fps and one going 2,250 fps? I'm actually curious and not trying to be an ass. Why?
 
There's little difference between a bullet going 3,000 fps and one going 2,250 fps? I'm actually curious and not trying to be an ass. Why?
No worries. I should've been more clear. I actually had two intended meanings tied up in that.

First, as I said but with more emphasis this time, not a huge difference between NEWER straight walls (eg, 350 Legend, 400 Legend, 41 Great Lakes, 450 Bushmaster) and most (I should've said some or many) TRADITIONAL bottle neck cartridges (eg, 30-30, 35 Remington, 32 Special). You could also lump in other calibers with similar ballistics like 300 BO, 7.62x39, and disallowed straight walls like 45-70 and 444 Marlin.

Second - and I know this will be a more controversial take - although there's a huge difference in the ballistics (talking about the high velocity stuff now), there's not a huge difference in the impact on safety in the local context. In the LFDZ, most of the hunting situations where people have safety concerns are either on very crowded public land, or small parcels that are often semi-suburban (large isolated ag parcels are also a thing, but I feel like people usually have fewer safety concerns in that context). A lot of hunters and small parcel property lines are within easy straight wall range of each other already anyway - if a bottleneck is considered unsafe in that context, so should a straight wall. Under those conditions, most of the firearm related incidents that are not self-inflicted fall into one of the following categories:

- Mistaken identity (eg, joggers start to look like deer when you're drunk enough), and those usually happen at such close range it doesn't matter if you're using a 350 Legend or a 6.5 PRC.

- Short range with no backstop (eg, I didn't see the guy in the bush on the other side of the deer I was shooting at). Again, close enough caliber doesn't matter, and arguably the relative brush-blindness and bounciness (think of like a ricochet from a shallow angle ground impact) of a large slow bullet could present greater risk than a small fast bullet.

- Long range with no backstop (eg, shot at a deer standing on top of a hill and missed, and now that bullet is bound for the next county; or didn't see the other guy in that tree line 800 yards away). This is the situation where I concede the restriction has some merit. But given how flat most of the terrain is, shots at an upward angle are pretty rare. And given that most people now also hunt from tree stands and elevated blinds, most shots are actually at a downward angle anyway, and a miss ends up in the ground. I don't think this edge case is enough justification by itself to have a such a broad caliber restriction.

Hopefully that's more clear. It's just my opinion, and I know there are a lot of edge case not covered, but those seem so into the weeds when you look at the stats on actual incidents that lightning strikes start to seem like more of a concern than whether your neighbor's cartridge case has a shoulder.

Also, I just wanted to add: This is a separate argument, but the number of under educated hunters I've run into who say they like using a straight wall cartridge because they don't have to worry about where it will go - like they think it will just hit a magic wall and drop out of the air at 200 yards - is just scary. Whether the regulation stays or goes, we need to do better at reminding people that their straight wall rifles are lethal at ranges far exceeding the distance you'd actually take a shot at a deer, and you always Always ALWAYS need to be aware of what's beyond your target.
 
No worries. I should've been more clear. I actually had two intended meanings tied up in that.

First, as I said but with more emphasis this time, not a huge difference between NEWER straight walls (eg, 350 Legend, 400 Legend, 41 Great Lakes, 450 Bushmaster) and most (I should've said some or many) TRADITIONAL bottle neck cartridges (eg, 30-30, 35 Remington, 32 Special). You could also lump in other calibers with similar ballistics like 300 BO, 7.62x39, and disallowed straight walls like 45-70 and 444 Marlin.

Second - and I know this will be a more controversial take - although there's a huge difference in the ballistics (talking about the high velocity stuff now), there's not a huge difference in the impact on safety in the local context. In the LFDZ, most of the hunting situations where people have safety concerns are either on very crowded public land, or small parcels that are often semi-suburban (large isolated ag parcels are also a thing, but I feel like people usually have fewer safety concerns in that context). A lot of hunters and small parcel property lines are within easy straight wall range of each other already anyway - if a bottleneck is considered unsafe in that context, so should a straight wall. Under those conditions, most of the firearm related incidents that are not self-inflicted fall into one of the following categories:

- Mistaken identity (eg, joggers start to look like deer when you're drunk enough), and those usually happen at such close range it doesn't matter if you're using a 350 Legend or a 6.5 PRC.

- Short range with no backstop (eg, I didn't see the guy in the bush on the other side of the deer I was shooting at). Again, close enough caliber doesn't matter, and arguably the relative brush-blindness and bounciness (think of like a ricochet from a shallow angle ground impact) of a large slow bullet could present greater risk than a small fast bullet.

- Long range with no backstop (eg, shot at a deer standing on top of a hill and missed, and now that bullet is bound for the next county; or didn't see the other guy in that tree line 800 yards away). This is the situation where I concede the restriction has some merit. But given how flat most of the terrain is, shots at an upward angle are pretty rare. And given that most people now also hunt from tree stands and elevated blinds, most shots are actually at a downward angle anyway, and a miss ends up in the ground. I don't think this edge case is enough justification by itself to have a such a broad caliber restriction.

Hopefully that's more clear. It's just my opinion, and I know there are a lot of edge case not covered, but those seem so into the weeds when you look at the stats on actual incidents that lightning strikes start to seem like more of a concern than whether your neighbor's cartridge case has a shoulder.

Also, I just wanted to add: This is a separate argument, but the number of under educated hunters I've run into who say they like using a straight wall cartridge because they don't have to worry about where it will go - like they think it will just hit a magic wall and drop out of the air at 200 yards - is just scary. Whether the regulation stays or goes, we need to do better at reminding people that their straight wall rifles are lethal at ranges far exceeding the distance you'd actually take a shot at a deer, and you always Always ALWAYS need to be aware of what's beyond your target.
Makes perfect sense.

I was thinking about the distance it goes before skipping dirt. Say 1 second - 2,250 ft vs 3,000.

But when we add in human stupidity, there is no safe zone.

Ive hunted a lot on ag adj to residences and felt 30-06 “was too much”. More comfortable shooting 2,000 fps 357 mag. Kills deer but not gonna blow thru a house wall.

While plenty of folks disagree, im willing to agree to xbow and archery only in areas w house up tight and personal.
 
In regards to the Straight wall cartridges - I know in some other states that it is the County or City that has Laws banning discharge of certain firearms, not the game department.


Is this something that would still apply to Michigan? Certain Jurisdictions limiting discharge of firearms? Like no center fire rifles in X county? (Leaving muzzy or shotguns only?)
 
In regards to the Straight wall cartridges - I know in some other states that it is the County or City that has Laws banning discharge of certain firearms, not the game department.


Is this something that would still apply to Michigan? Certain Jurisdictions limiting discharge of firearms? Like no center fire rifles in X county? (Leaving muzzy or shotguns only?)
Michigan's firearm preemption statute only explicitly allows cities and charter townships (most are general law townships, not charter) to ban discharge of firearms, and many do. Probably nothing a county can do by itself.
 
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