Can concur, I put 4k rounds through my silver eagle and it broke a spring and became a single shot.
Antique SxS Spend my $$
- Thread starter Sierra Hunter
- Start date
Can concur, I put 4k rounds through my silver eagle and it broke a spring and became a single shot.
cubdriver84d
WKR
I know you said American, but I’m a big fan of Basque shotguns. Cool history. I have an AyA 4/53 that I picked up used and love.
projectupland.com
In Our Veins - The Story of AYA Shotguns in Film
The story of AYA is long, interesting, and ultimately about people. Alex Aranzábal, now at the center of that story, is of the fourth generation of the AYA family.
projectupland.com
Mojave
WKR
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2019
- Messages
- 2,332
The biggest problem for me on pre-1950 type American made shotguns is that the stocks never fit.
They usually but not always, have way too much drop in from wrist to butt. German guns of the same era have the same issue.
If it was me buying something like that and I wanted a side by side for upland game, I'd buy a modern Spanish gun like an AYA or Arrietta or Ugeartecha that fit me. A Merkel would be pretty tops.
There are some Italian modern guns that are similar money and similar build quality.
The only European double that really sucks is the Beretta silver fox has tons of quality issues.
They usually but not always, have way too much drop in from wrist to butt. German guns of the same era have the same issue.
If it was me buying something like that and I wanted a side by side for upland game, I'd buy a modern Spanish gun like an AYA or Arrietta or Ugeartecha that fit me. A Merkel would be pretty tops.
There are some Italian modern guns that are similar money and similar build quality.
The only European double that really sucks is the Beretta silver fox has tons of quality issues.
oh jeeze, this was my addiction for a couple decades. I love classic American doubles, they have lots of reasons to stay away but imo very little out there is as "cool" as hunting with a gun made over 100 years ago in the USA when parts were hand fitted, etc. In no particular order, my thoughts.
The stocks are pretty much 100% going to be too short and have too much drop, unless you are a really little guy. This is THE major issue I see. I'm 6'3" and have a +2" ape index so original stocks on a classic double is a 100% total no-go for me--I learned gun fitting and to stock guns in order to be able to use some of these...it's no biggie to OWN a good double for 2-3k, but to really shoot one you could be looking at a restock, which will likely cost you close to that much before you even buy the gun. Some you can bend the stock to fit OK, but many cannot be bent enough, and length may be an issue for you. So, get your fit solid before you really start shopping. And, if you can buy someone else's project por a modern repro/refurb like the del greco above, you may be in a little bit more but it'll be cheaper than if you paid to have that work done...the only problem being that you kind of lose a lot of the allure of having a 100-yuear-old gun if it looks spanking new. Or, an older british or european double might be a more shootable choice and arguably a "better" gun strictly objectively speaking.
Super common things to look out for:
1) Barrel solder coming apart, often from a hack smith trying to reblue using modern methods. The barrrels and ribs were assembled using soft solder that melts at lower than the temp used in many modern bluing methods. This, as well as age and use, can cause the solder to separate. Often this is invisible. If you hang the barrels by the lug from 1 finger and tap a pencil or something like that along their length you can usually hear a section that doesnt ring the same if there is a section of bad solder. This is usually not catastrophic, but a rib relay and reblue will run you close to $1000 or more so it's something you want to be aware of ahead of time.
2) off face/loose action--if the gun has been used a lot the hook on the barrel lug and the hinge pin will have worn a bit and it wont lock up as tightly. Take the foreend off and hold the grip and barrels with a hand each, and give it a little wiggle--if you can feel some wiggle between the barrels and action it could need some repair. A little is likely OK if not ideal, but a major wiggle can indicate the gun is loose enough to be a problem. Again, it's repairable, but costly, either requiring adding material to the hook and re-fitting it to the hinge, or a new hinge-pin altogether. Many of these guns will also have the top lever left of center when closed, which indicates wear of the locking lug(s). Not a deal breaker, but something to indicate how much use its had and how much life may be left before significant repairs are needed.
3) cracked stocks--none of these guns use a through-bolt the way most modern guns do. If you look from the top, the actions are virtually all wedge-shaped, ie the part inside the wood is wider at the front of the gun and tapers as it extends into the stock toward the butt. If 100 years of lubricating and cleaning oils have leaked from the action into the wood during storage, the recoil-bearing surface can soften, allowing recoil to compress the wood in that area...which allows the action itself to be driven deeper and deeper into the stock with every shot. This will eventually result in a split in the wood from the end of the rear tang, back toward the butt. Again, this is easily repairable, but gets expensive when all this stuff adds up.
Each make of gun also has their own issues particular to that design. You kind of have to be a student of each design to have a feel for everything, but it can be a good idea to read up on each design and get a sense of what to look out for before diving in too deep, or to be willing to pay top dollar and buy from a really reputable dealer that will be honest up front.
Personally, I think the old graded damascus Lefever doubles are coolest, but among the hardest to shoot due to crazy stock dimensions, the hardest to work on, hard to find good ones and you pay when you do. I've never owned one for all of those reasons, but those are smoking cool. I have nightmares about inletting the tangs on those actions too.
Parkers are my next favorite. Trojans are nothing special and kind of mehh, but any nice graded parker in good condition is sort of a marvel to me. The actions are over complicated to get around some other patents, and there are a lot of variations of models and grades and barrels, etc. Some of the older damascus barreled mid-grades are my favorite (PH, etc). Some of the parkers seem to have more variation in quality even in the same grades, than other guns of the era, so look at a bunch before you spring for one or you might find yourself with one of the ones where the engraved birds look more like flying turnips. There is a lot of info on parkers and a good collectors website and forum, so pretty easy to get info about these and plenty of smiths who are well versed in working on them. parkers were available in different frame weights as well, so collectors like the rarer gauge/frame/barrel configurations. A parker VH can be found with relatively modern dimensions--I know nothing about this gun, but its fairly modern stock that could be made a little longer with a nice pad if you could find someone who would do a good job dealing with the widows peak. https://robinhollow.com/guns-for-sa...tguns/parker-vh-12-gauge.cfm?gun_id=102526061
Foxes are also very cool, I personally think they have great lines, and a few of the common configurations are great lightweight guns that get you into a cool old American double for not a ton of $. A nice 1920's AE 16ga with lightweight barrels is a treat, but unlike a parker the lowest "ungraded" model the sterlingworth was exactly the same action as the graded ones, just with less engraving and a snap-on forend instead of a latch. On all of these, the subguages often had 26" barrels from the factory. Most--but not all--foxes and parkers you can look up the original gun configuration by serial # (ie serial 167... was a 12ga Sterlingworth made in 1913 with 30" #1 weight barrels choked modified and full, shipped to XX hardware store in milwaukee, wi" or something like that). This can help to make sure if things are original if you are paying anything for a collectible gun. Fox also has a good collectors website and info available. 16ga foxes are really easy to find and are nice becasue its a small, light frame the same-ish as their 20ga frame, but with a slightly bigger shell to accomodate some bismuth shot for you californians. Foxes had 4 barrel weights (1-4, with 1 being heaviest, 4 being lightest) so you can often tell what the handling of the gun is going to be like if you can determine what barrels it has--some are marked, some arent. I think foxes are justifiably popular, although a lot of people feel they are pretty pedestrian as older american guns go--perhaps true, and some of the allure is certainly becasue its a very simple action that is easy to work on and customize.
LC Smiths are classics for sure, but aesthetically they leave me kind of cold until you get into the higher-grade big-money guns. Some of the rem 1894's are really cool too, although not nearly as common as some of the others.
With any of these guns if you find a good condition one, the price is determined in large part by its collectors value. Fox made a bajillion a-grade 12 gauges with 28 and 30' barrels, so they are sort of a dime a dozen and prices will be lower--a LOT lower--than a truly oddball configuration. There are a few Foxes that were special ordered with very specific instructions that I've seen letters for, that would bring a premium, including ex ceptionally long barrels, stocks with longer and more modern dimensions, extra fancy wood, etc. I dont remember exactly the details, but I heard of a graded ejector 20ga fox with the lightest-weight barrels in 32" with pretty modern stock dimensions--a gun like that would be 10x the price of a standard 20ga with 26 or 28' barrels even though the gun grade was the same and condition might be the same. You will likely get the most bang for your buck from a fox or parker low-grade gun with extractors, not ejectors--that means a fox A grade or a parker VH. An AE or a VHE will be a little more, but also good options.
If you arent particular about make, some of the 20th century british "second-best" doubles might be a solid bet. You are likely looking at 3-4k rather than 2-3, but you can get a heck of a lot of gun for that money...buying similar quality now in a new gun is upwards of 15-20k or even more. Check out Hill Road and Gun for some good opotions here. Looks like it hasnt been updated in a couple months, but something like the 16ga william evans or the Midland a few down from the top...
The stocks are pretty much 100% going to be too short and have too much drop, unless you are a really little guy. This is THE major issue I see. I'm 6'3" and have a +2" ape index so original stocks on a classic double is a 100% total no-go for me--I learned gun fitting and to stock guns in order to be able to use some of these...it's no biggie to OWN a good double for 2-3k, but to really shoot one you could be looking at a restock, which will likely cost you close to that much before you even buy the gun. Some you can bend the stock to fit OK, but many cannot be bent enough, and length may be an issue for you. So, get your fit solid before you really start shopping. And, if you can buy someone else's project por a modern repro/refurb like the del greco above, you may be in a little bit more but it'll be cheaper than if you paid to have that work done...the only problem being that you kind of lose a lot of the allure of having a 100-yuear-old gun if it looks spanking new. Or, an older british or european double might be a more shootable choice and arguably a "better" gun strictly objectively speaking.
Super common things to look out for:
1) Barrel solder coming apart, often from a hack smith trying to reblue using modern methods. The barrrels and ribs were assembled using soft solder that melts at lower than the temp used in many modern bluing methods. This, as well as age and use, can cause the solder to separate. Often this is invisible. If you hang the barrels by the lug from 1 finger and tap a pencil or something like that along their length you can usually hear a section that doesnt ring the same if there is a section of bad solder. This is usually not catastrophic, but a rib relay and reblue will run you close to $1000 or more so it's something you want to be aware of ahead of time.
2) off face/loose action--if the gun has been used a lot the hook on the barrel lug and the hinge pin will have worn a bit and it wont lock up as tightly. Take the foreend off and hold the grip and barrels with a hand each, and give it a little wiggle--if you can feel some wiggle between the barrels and action it could need some repair. A little is likely OK if not ideal, but a major wiggle can indicate the gun is loose enough to be a problem. Again, it's repairable, but costly, either requiring adding material to the hook and re-fitting it to the hinge, or a new hinge-pin altogether. Many of these guns will also have the top lever left of center when closed, which indicates wear of the locking lug(s). Not a deal breaker, but something to indicate how much use its had and how much life may be left before significant repairs are needed.
3) cracked stocks--none of these guns use a through-bolt the way most modern guns do. If you look from the top, the actions are virtually all wedge-shaped, ie the part inside the wood is wider at the front of the gun and tapers as it extends into the stock toward the butt. If 100 years of lubricating and cleaning oils have leaked from the action into the wood during storage, the recoil-bearing surface can soften, allowing recoil to compress the wood in that area...which allows the action itself to be driven deeper and deeper into the stock with every shot. This will eventually result in a split in the wood from the end of the rear tang, back toward the butt. Again, this is easily repairable, but gets expensive when all this stuff adds up.
Each make of gun also has their own issues particular to that design. You kind of have to be a student of each design to have a feel for everything, but it can be a good idea to read up on each design and get a sense of what to look out for before diving in too deep, or to be willing to pay top dollar and buy from a really reputable dealer that will be honest up front.
Personally, I think the old graded damascus Lefever doubles are coolest, but among the hardest to shoot due to crazy stock dimensions, the hardest to work on, hard to find good ones and you pay when you do. I've never owned one for all of those reasons, but those are smoking cool. I have nightmares about inletting the tangs on those actions too.
Parkers are my next favorite. Trojans are nothing special and kind of mehh, but any nice graded parker in good condition is sort of a marvel to me. The actions are over complicated to get around some other patents, and there are a lot of variations of models and grades and barrels, etc. Some of the older damascus barreled mid-grades are my favorite (PH, etc). Some of the parkers seem to have more variation in quality even in the same grades, than other guns of the era, so look at a bunch before you spring for one or you might find yourself with one of the ones where the engraved birds look more like flying turnips. There is a lot of info on parkers and a good collectors website and forum, so pretty easy to get info about these and plenty of smiths who are well versed in working on them. parkers were available in different frame weights as well, so collectors like the rarer gauge/frame/barrel configurations. A parker VH can be found with relatively modern dimensions--I know nothing about this gun, but its fairly modern stock that could be made a little longer with a nice pad if you could find someone who would do a good job dealing with the widows peak. https://robinhollow.com/guns-for-sa...tguns/parker-vh-12-gauge.cfm?gun_id=102526061
Foxes are also very cool, I personally think they have great lines, and a few of the common configurations are great lightweight guns that get you into a cool old American double for not a ton of $. A nice 1920's AE 16ga with lightweight barrels is a treat, but unlike a parker the lowest "ungraded" model the sterlingworth was exactly the same action as the graded ones, just with less engraving and a snap-on forend instead of a latch. On all of these, the subguages often had 26" barrels from the factory. Most--but not all--foxes and parkers you can look up the original gun configuration by serial # (ie serial 167... was a 12ga Sterlingworth made in 1913 with 30" #1 weight barrels choked modified and full, shipped to XX hardware store in milwaukee, wi" or something like that). This can help to make sure if things are original if you are paying anything for a collectible gun. Fox also has a good collectors website and info available. 16ga foxes are really easy to find and are nice becasue its a small, light frame the same-ish as their 20ga frame, but with a slightly bigger shell to accomodate some bismuth shot for you californians. Foxes had 4 barrel weights (1-4, with 1 being heaviest, 4 being lightest) so you can often tell what the handling of the gun is going to be like if you can determine what barrels it has--some are marked, some arent. I think foxes are justifiably popular, although a lot of people feel they are pretty pedestrian as older american guns go--perhaps true, and some of the allure is certainly becasue its a very simple action that is easy to work on and customize.
LC Smiths are classics for sure, but aesthetically they leave me kind of cold until you get into the higher-grade big-money guns. Some of the rem 1894's are really cool too, although not nearly as common as some of the others.
With any of these guns if you find a good condition one, the price is determined in large part by its collectors value. Fox made a bajillion a-grade 12 gauges with 28 and 30' barrels, so they are sort of a dime a dozen and prices will be lower--a LOT lower--than a truly oddball configuration. There are a few Foxes that were special ordered with very specific instructions that I've seen letters for, that would bring a premium, including ex ceptionally long barrels, stocks with longer and more modern dimensions, extra fancy wood, etc. I dont remember exactly the details, but I heard of a graded ejector 20ga fox with the lightest-weight barrels in 32" with pretty modern stock dimensions--a gun like that would be 10x the price of a standard 20ga with 26 or 28' barrels even though the gun grade was the same and condition might be the same. You will likely get the most bang for your buck from a fox or parker low-grade gun with extractors, not ejectors--that means a fox A grade or a parker VH. An AE or a VHE will be a little more, but also good options.
If you arent particular about make, some of the 20th century british "second-best" doubles might be a solid bet. You are likely looking at 3-4k rather than 2-3, but you can get a heck of a lot of gun for that money...buying similar quality now in a new gun is upwards of 15-20k or even more. Check out Hill Road and Gun for some good opotions here. Looks like it hasnt been updated in a couple months, but something like the 16ga william evans or the Midland a few down from the top...
Hill Rod and Gun-Fine English Shotguns for sale
Affordable, Fine, vintage English shotguns
www.hillrodandgun.com
Last edited:
Jason Snyder
WKR
What about this as an option?
I plan on buying one of these for my retirement gift.
uplandguncompany.com
I plan on buying one of these for my retirement gift.
RFM Zeus Custom Italian Shotgun - Upland Gun Company
The Zeus is the first in our line of quality Italian made side-by-side boxlock shotguns customizable for the American wingshooter.
uplandguncompany.com
- Thread Starter
- #27
OP
Sierra Hunter
WKR
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- Feb 28, 2021
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I really appreciate the knowledge drop, as stated clearly you were in the weeks for a period of time. I do love the idea of owning a piece of American history, I’m a bit of a big frills/want use and abuse my equipment. I will start learning a bit more given your recommendations. Again, thank you.
- Thread Starter
- #28
OP
Sierra Hunter
WKR
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- Feb 28, 2021
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- 765
I’m also not a small human (6’1”) so some of those stock issues would likely be a concern. I must ask, what do you still own, can we see a pic, and are you planning on moving any along?
- Thread Starter
- #29
OP
Sierra Hunter
WKR
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Curious why Ithaca is never mentioned
Get a sense of the stock dimensions you need, both length and comb heaight. Those are numbers that can be easily measured and communicated, and you can tell from an ad or on a call if a gun will be pretty good fit, or a no-go. Generally thats going to mean a 14.5” length minimum and drop at heel of 2.5” or less, probably 2 3/8 would be better for most, and either neutral or cast off for a right handed shooter. Most of these guns were standard with 3” of drop and often have sub 14” stocks. With double triggers you measure lop from the FRONT trigger by the way, and that generally means your length of pull on a DT gun will be a little longer than a single trigger gun. If youre over 6’, in a perfect world you probably want something in the neighborhood of a 15” lop, so be prepared to add a recoil pad or a spacer to get length. Getting the drop is harder, so if you can find one that fits already you are way ahead. If you can find a well-done restock or restoration those dont usually have any collector value so could be a good option. The del greco parker Wrench posted is a perfect example—del greco is THE name associated with parker restorations so it’s going to be true to the original, well done workmanship, but likely without most of the issues that are inherent to 100 year old guns…and at a (relatively speaking) reasonable price for someone who wants to use it.
Ithacas are cool. Bakers and some of the older flues models are certainly cool guns, but aesthetically they havent done it for me and Ive found several with bulged barrels and other major issues. The newer models just never pushed my buttons. Ive never owned one, but some people like them. Theres a lot of different models and iterations so they can be a little complex to really get to know, but if youre have an affinity for them nonreason I know of to avoid them.
A lot of these guns, ithaca invluded, went thru pretty significant changes over their production, generally to keep them cost effective. Result was almost uniformly the guns got blockier, less-refined shapes, poor fitted and put together, and not as good handling. Later savage foxes, newer ithaca nid’s, etc all fall into this category for me. Nothing inherently wrong with them, they just dont have the “it” factor that to me is what makes an older gun so cool.
The only remaining older double I have is a former basket-case 1913 fox sterlingworth that I restocked into a sporting clays gun. At this point its less a classic double than it is a modification, as apart from the action and barrels nothing is even close to original. Id sell it, but it needs ribs relaid so its a project rather than a completed gun, so not for everyone.
Last edited:
Jason Snyder
WKR
Once I added a recoil pad to my SxS I shot much better with it. The stock maker I talked to immediately told me to add LOP for the double gun.
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- Sep 28, 2023
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- 615
OP: did you get an old gun?
- Thread Starter
- #33
OP
Sierra Hunter
WKR
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2021
- Messages
- 765
I haven’t, I need to get to a spot where I can put hands on them
Hold one before buying. Modern stock dimensions are different than they once were. I got lucky and snagged a Fox Sterlingworth 16 gauge that fits me as well as any shotgun I've ever shouldered. It's a delightful double that weighs just over 6 pounds. Due to it's tiny action, when it arrived, I was convinced it was a 20 gauge.
From what I've seen, prices for vintage doubles are low at the moment, so it is a good time to buy. I can't hit well with doubles, but they sure are fun to hunt with.
From what I've seen, prices for vintage doubles are low at the moment, so it is a good time to buy. I can't hit well with doubles, but they sure are fun to hunt with.
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