American Prairie loses grazing rights

[medvedyt]

bison and human and elk can co-exist in the Yukon we are the proof it can works asks the alaskans what they think about the way we handdle it.

 

[cuerro viejo]

Sec of Ag needs to incentivize cow herd growth with retained heifer ownership, I’d be good with BLM having mandates in there for replacement heifer retention over bison grazing

 

[WRO]

Sec of Ag needs to incentivize cow herd growth with retained heifer ownership, I’d be good with BLM having mandates in there for replacement heifer retention over bison grazing

What benefits would this provide to hunters and the ecosystem?


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[PLhunter]

What benefits would this provide to hunters and the ecosystem?


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Yeah, I have never been out hunting or exploring and been like…. You know what would make this better? More cows. We need to use tax payer dollars to incentivize more of those things out here. Not nearly enough of em.

 

[PLhunter]

If it’s a large percentage wouldn’t they stop looking like bison?

There’s cattle genes in a lot of bison herds, but it’s what we have.


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Wouldn’t that make them livestock by this logic and eligible to graze? Bison aren’t worth saving because they have some cattle DNA in them. Bison aren’t eligible to graze because they aren’t cows. Which is it?

 

[Marbles]

Sec of Ag needs to incentivize cow herd growth with retained heifer ownership, I’d be good with BLM having mandates in there for replacement heifer retention over bison grazing

Why?

If we are concerned with generating meat supply; how about mandate profit and a lack of profit and if there is not an average profit over 5 years, proven by paying taxes on the profit, then the lease owner is kicked off.

The more effective way would be to charge market competitive rates and let the market deal with the rest.



We could mandate easement access to public in exchange for the current cheap grazing access with preference to local owners. Arial shoot and leave authorization for any cattle on public land without grazing permits (no easement access). You can create an economy of helicopter shooting tours and get free enforcement. People like the Bundy's should be ran into the dirt like the thieves they are. (A joke, life is too complicated for it).

 

[PLhunter]

This isn’t just about AP or Montana. It’s about all of the Western states that graze cattle. Yes I want the FAMILY local cattle ranches to do well so we can hunt there. Montana has quite a bit of public lands, states like South Dakota do not. In South Dakota, 85% of the Deer, Pronghorn and elk hunting is done on family owned cattle ranches that are open to public hunting. In South Dakota over 1.2 million acres are open to public hunting for these species, not just 80K acres.. The ranchers get dollars per acre from the State to open for hunting.

There are oligarchs trying to exploit South Dakota as well. Turner got hold of some prime mule deer land (seems to be his thing these days). Go to Turner Ent. Web in South Dakota. They state that “hunting is Exclusive”.

Now it’s time for me to switch gears to address “Outfitter Welfare” in New Mexico, yet another Socialist idea.

If you want true capitalism open up grazing rights on public lands to anyone and everyone and see who comes up with the highest bid. They can choose to use them or not use them.

You’re confusing socialism with oligarchy most of the time. The exclusivity of the access to power is the difference.

 

[Gila]

The sky isn't falling, every time there's change the whole internet gets tribal and thinks it’s the end of the world as we know it. The reason we have clean water, national parks, public lands, is because people bucked the system.

Grazing APs “Zoo” bison on public lands is a big deal because it sets precedent for the entire country. Providing bison to feed predators and scavengers instead of feeding humans is net less than zero! Grazing cattle on BLM land isn’t a subsidy. Reasonable rent with a 10 year contract is more like it. Comparing AUM dollars is non sequitur. Cattle grazing provides the Government with more than just the rent. The intrinsic value to the economy: jobs, taxes, price of domestic beef, grain consumption, exports etc. is in the tens of billions of dollars.

We've lost more cattle on the landscape from market attrition and natural disasters the last decade than 3%.

Don’t understand your 3% of something.

Why are you opposed to restoring the landscape in a small section of MT?

Re-wilding three million contiguous acres in Montana isn’t small potatoes. All of those fences are being removed. Those private ranches don’t need “restoring”. They can use the Clarence Mortensen methods (and often do) like South Dakota does to restore the natural prairie and reap the benefit of grazing more cattle without using bison.

How much hunting or public access at all, do you think AP will allow once they get the brown bears and Gray wolves in place? Make no mistake about it: AP is trying to break the cattle grazing “system’ so they can acquire the BLM lands within that contiguous three million acres. The land that is being leased to neighboring cattle ranches has very strict conditions and rules. Do those land leases allow public access and hunting?

 

[PLhunter]

Why?

If we are concerned with generating meat supply; how about mandate profit and a lack of profit and if there is not an average profit over 5 years, proven by paying taxes on the profit, then the lease owner is kicked off.

The more effective way would be to charge market competitive rates and let the market deal with the rest.



We could mandate easement access to public in exchange for the current cheap grazing access with preference to local owners. Arial shoot and leave authorization for any cattle on public land without grazing permits (no easement access). You can create an economy of helicopter shooting tours and get free enforcement. People like the Bundy's should be ran into the dirt like the thieves they are. (A joke, life is too complicated for it).

What is this manufactured meat supply issue? Why do we care about cheap beef here? Are we that bad of hunters on this site that we HAVE to buy beef?

All beef cattle could disappear off of public lands tomorrow and food security wouldn’t change. There is nothing in beef that can’t be replaced by another food source. There is no essential nutrient isolated to just cattle. If you’re trying to boost food security in the most obese highest cholesterol country on the planet then beef doesn’t have to be what’s for dinner.

 

[PLhunter]

Grazing APs “Zoo” bison on public lands is a big deal because it sets precedent for the entire country. Providing bison to feed predators and scavengers instead of feeding humans is net less than zero!

You really think we will just have bison running everywhere if we allow the APR to graze the ungulate of their choosing on their leases? Market economics wouldn’t allow it. Trying to make a slippery slope out of 80 grit.

Re-wilding three million contiguous acres in Montana isn’t small potatoes. All of those fences are being removed.

pro more fencing and un-wilding Hunter? The title of this subforum is conservation. I think you need to be posting in the 18th century agronomics subforum instead. Hunters get so wrapped around the anti environmental circle that they end up anti wildlife.

 

[WRO]

Grazing APs “Zoo” bison on public lands is a big deal because it sets precedent for the entire country. Providing bison to feed predators and scavengers instead of feeding humans is net less than zero! Grazing cattle on BLM land isn’t a subsidy. Reasonable rent with a 10 year contract is more like it. Comparing AUM dollars is non sequitur. Cattle grazing provides the Government with more than just the rent. The intrinsic value to the economy: jobs, taxes, price of domestic beef, grain consumption, exports etc. is in the tens of billions of dollars.



Don’t understand your 3% of something.



Re-wilding three million contiguous acres in Montana isn’t small potatoes. All of those fences are being removed. Those private ranches don’t need “restoring”. They can use the Clarence Mortensen methods (and often do) like South Dakota does to restore the natural prairie and reap the benefit of grazing more cattle without using bison.

How much hunting or public access at all, do you think AP will allow once they get the brown bears and Gray wolves in place? Make no mistake about it: AP is trying to break the cattle grazing “system’ so they can acquire the BLM lands within that contiguous three million acres. The land that is being leased to neighboring cattle ranches has very strict conditions and rules. Do those land leases allow public access and hunting?

Why don’t you just come out and say it, You prefer ranching and business interests over conservation and habitat.


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[Gila]

Since people are putting words in my mouth, let me be clear. i stated that Elk, Deer and Pronghorn have learned to tolerate cattle better than they do bison. Rutting bull bison will chase down and attack just about anything in their path. Cattle bulls are aggressive but nothing like bison bulls. Cattle don’t run very far when they herd up.

 

[PLhunter]

Since people are putting words in my mouth, let me be clear. i stated that Elk, Deer and Pronghorn have learned to tolerate cattle better than they do bison. Rutting bull bison will chase down and attack just about anything in their path. Cattle bulls are aggressive but nothing like bison bulls. Cattle don’t run very far when they herd up.

Deer, elk, and antelope have learned to tolerate a non native species which has propagated fencing and massive habitat loss -to provide feed concentrate for- as well as road infrastructure better than the species they co-evolved with for millions of years? Okie dokie.

 

[WoolOverAll]

Elk, deer and pronghorn lived with bison for a lot longer than cattle have. I find it hard to believe that bison are that detrimental to other species compared to cattle. Bison population density and cattle density are fundamentally different. The carrying capacity of these lands have been warped by humans. Give the land some time to balance out and you'll see different animal behaviors.

 

[PLhunter]

Since people are putting words in my mouth, let me be clear. i stated that Elk, Deer and Pronghorn have learned to tolerate cattle better than they do bison. Rutting bull bison will chase down and attack just about anything in their path. Cattle bulls are aggressive but nothing like bison bulls. Cattle don’t run very far when they herd up.

Best deer tag in Utah? Where would you go? Governors tag?
Henry Mountains would be an excellent pick but if you want the very biggest maybe antelope island?
Bookcliffs roadless area is one of the most sought after elk tags in the state. Has excellent bear density and is one of the better deer hunts in the state.

You better go inform those deer and elk of their intolerance to the free ranging bison in those areas.

Also, not running as far when they herd up IS much of the environmental problem with cattle.

 

[Marbles]

Since people are putting words in my mouth, let me be clear. i stated that Elk, Deer and Pronghorn have learned to tolerate cattle better than they do bison. Rutting bull bison will chase down and attack just about anything in their path. Cattle bulls are aggressive but nothing like bison bulls. Cattle don’t run very far when they herd up.

Revisionist history at its finest.

Those massive elk herds Lewis and Clark documented on the Great Plains sure had problems from the 50-100 million bison on the land. Also very surprising that the expedition found pronghorns to kill and eat as well as killing over 1,000 deer for food. Bison certainly were a problem for native wildlife, the bulls goring all the poor deer and such.

 

[Gila]

pro more fencing and un-wilding Hunter? The title of this subforum is conservation. I think you need to be posting in the 18th century agronomics subforum instead. Hunters get so wrapped around the anti environmental circle that they end up anti wildlife.

Putting words in my mouth again. Removing millions of dollars of fences renders the land useless for grazing cattle and sheep. Doing that devalues the land and will break county governments that depend on property taxes. I am all in favor of modifying fences to be more pronghorn friendly. Some mule deer have problems with range fences. I have freed some big mule deer bucks caught in those fences. Elk and white tail generally don’t have a problem. They will usually wear down the weakest points.

The re-wilding “hype” is to replace hunting as a management tool with apex predators. Hunters don’t sue fish and game departments for re-introducing game animals.

 

[Gila]

Best deer tag in Utah? Where would you go? Governors tag?
Henry Mountains would be an excellent pick but if you want the very biggest maybe antelope island?
Bookcliffs roadless area is one of the most sought after elk tags in the state. Has excellent bear density and is one of the better deer hunts in the state.

You better go inform those deer and elk of their intolerance to the free ranging bison in those areas.

Also, not running as far when they herd up IS much of the environmental problem with cattle.

Apples and oranges

 

[PLhunter]

Putting words in my mouth again. Removing millions of dollars of fences renders the land useless for grazing cattle and sheep. Doing that devalues the land and will break county governments that depend on property taxes.

Are you trying to insinuate that cattle fencing infrastructure is a significant portion of the property value assessment used by municipalities when setting tax rates? If property tax rates are crucial are you also opposed to property tax breaks for ag producers? After all the local government is depending on that revenue and if fences are the difference between prosperity we surely can’t afford property tax cuts for ranchers,

You can hunt the APR bison and elk and deer too. You’re just throwing every single thing you can mash into a keyboard and hoping it sticks. Do you have ANY evidence that reduced fencing lowers property taxes? Do you have any evidence that APR properties are taxed less than traditional properties. Do you realize none of this matters because we are talking about BLM leases?

 

[Gila]

Revisionist history at its finest.

Those massive elk herds Lewis and Clark documented on the Great Plains sure had problems from the 50-100 million bison on the land. Also very surprising that the expedition found pronghorns to kill and eat as well as killing over 1,000 deer for food. Bison certainly were a problem for native wildlife, the bulls goring all the poor deer and such.

Went a little far out of the small grazing allotments didn’t you?