American made alternatives to the tikka ?

[skywalkr]

a thread about American alternatives to Tikka and the America hating Tikka fanboys fill it up LOL

As an impartial bystander who owns Tikka’s and other rifles, if the thread was simply titled something like, “what is a solid and affordable American made rifle?” I doubt you would hear much from the Tikka crowd.

I’ll go back to eating my popcorn now.

 

[Formidilosus]

They’ve been working everytime I’ve used them, so it’s hard to deviate very far from that.

We’re all a product of our experience, and people should use what they prefer.

I like Rem M7’s. Have spent considerable money getting them built up. But I’m not speaking to a couple of rifles, I’m talking dozens and dozens. Most times they do work ok. But I’ve also had and have seen more issues with Remingtons, and 700 based customs than pretty much every other mainstream rifle type. I’ve watched when half of the Remington and Remington based custom actions would not fire due a few minute dust storm- the Sakos, AI’s, and Tikkas all worked fine. I’ve had two partners have Rem 700 sniper rifles have ND’s when the bolt was closed (both reproducible), have had triggers lock up so often that it was mandated to carry a can of lighter fluid and flush the trigger everyday. Have seen bolt handles come off, have had several factory and aftermarket triggers fail due to snow and ice while backpack hunting several miles from the truck. Have had multiple actions need the base holes redrilled and enlarged due to not being in alignment, etc, etc.

Would most people notice? Probably not. If you’re someone who sits at a bench, drops a round in the action, slowly closes the bolt, fires, lifts their head up, then slowly pulls the bolt back catching the casing to keep it from getting dirty so you can put it back in the box, looks through the spotting scope, fiddles with the turret, stares at the target again, then waits five minutes for the barrel to “cool”, before repeating the whole process again... Yeah, you could shoot a freaking pike gun and it wouldn’t matter. However if you use and manipulate the rifle as they are supposed to be used, it does and problems surface pretty quick.

People get a round that doesn’t feed every once and a while and they think nothing of it. I’ve had several people claim their gun never has malfunctions, and then watch them have feedway stoppages and then immediately ask them about the malfunction- they always try to excuse it away. The reality is it happens and people give an excuse for it.



As for “flawlessly”, this is not-

There’s no shenanigans. I literally walked in and grabbed the first Remington my hand came to, in this case a M7’s with Trigger Tech trigger. First take and you see the bolt bind with ANY lateral pressure. Further, the TT trigger locked up. This wasn’t setup to do that, I’m laughing because it happened. This is supposed to be one of the most reliable triggers for R700’s on the market (and it is). The problem is all 700 triggers have relatively high rate of problems. The last time this rifle was used was in October of 2019 on a WY Antelope hunt. Aka- dusty conditions. After the video today I flushed it out... and lo and behold it now works. You can see that the rifle isn’t covered in dust, not that it should matter- but the smallest debris starts causeing issues.



In contrast-

Again, no setup. Grabbed the closest Tikka to me. No nonsense, no multiple takes, just started running the bolt. This rifle hasn’t been cleaned ever (several thousand rounds), has rode unprotected in the back of trucks, ATV’s, bikes; has been strapped to a pack for a couple hundred miles, had been purposely covered in water and frozen, had sand poured into every crevice that’s open, etc. And yet, no issues.

I couldn’t care less what someone shoots. People just need to stop saying “it’s personal opinion” when it’s so easy to prove that it’s not.

 

[16Bore]

As an impartial bystander who owns Tikka’s and other rifles, if the thread was simply titled something like, “what is a solid and affordable American made rifle?” I doubt you would hear much from the Tikka crowd.

I’ll go back to eating my popcorn now.

The thread title already suggests there’s a standard for comparison, which the T word pretty much is.

 

[FieldMarshall]

We’re all a product of our experience, and people should use what they prefer.

I like Rem M7’s. Have spent considerable money getting them built up. But I’m not speaking to a couple of rifles, I’m talking dozens and dozens. Most times they do work ok. But I’ve also had and have seen more issues with Remingtons, and 700 based customs than pretty much every other mainstream rifle type. I’ve watched when half of the Remington and Remington based custom actions would not fire due a few minute dust storm- the Sakos, AI’s, and Tikkas all worked fine. I’ve had two partners have Rem 700 sniper rifles have ND’s when the bolt was closed (both reproducible), have had triggers lock up so often that it was mandated to carry a can of lighter fluid and flush the trigger everyday. Have seen bolt handles come off, have had several factory and aftermarket triggers fail due to snow and ice while backpack hunting several miles from the truck. Have had multiple actions need the base holes redrilled and enlarged due to not being in alignment, etc, etc.

Would most people notice? Probably not. If you’re someone who sits at a bench, drops a round in the action, slowly closes the bolt, fires, lifts their head up, then slowly pulls the bolt back catching the casing to keep it from getting dirty so you can put it back in the box, looks through the spotting scope, fiddles with the turret, stares at the target again, then waits five minutes for the barrel to “cool”, before repeating the whole process again... Yeah, you could shoot a freaking pike gun and it wouldn’t matter. However if you use and manipulate the rifle as they are supposed to be used, it does and problems surface pretty quick.

People get a round that doesn’t feed every once and a while and they think nothing of it. I’ve had several people claim their gun never has malfunctions, and then watch them have feedway stoppages and then immediately ask them about the malfunction- they always try to excuse it away. The reality is it happens and people give an excuse for it.



As for “flawlessly”, this is not-

There’s no shenanigans. I literally walked in and grabbed the first Remington my hand came to, in this case a M7’s with Trigger Tech trigger. First take and you see the bolt bind with ANY lateral pressure. Further, the TT trigger locked up. This wasn’t setup to do that, I’m laughing because it happened. This is supposed to be one of the most reliable triggers for R700’s on the market (and it is). The problem is all 700 triggers have relatively high rate of problems. The last time this rifle was used was in October of 2019 on a WY Antelope hunt. Aka- dusty conditions. After the video today I flushed it out... and lo and behold it now works. You can see that the rifle isn’t covered in dust, not that it should matter- but the smallest debris starts causeing issues.



In contrast-

Again, no setup. Grabbed the closest Tikka to me. No nonsense, no multiple takes, just started running the bolt. This rifle hasn’t been cleaned ever (several thousand rounds), has rode unprotected in the back of trucks, ATV’s, bikes; has been strapped to a pack for a couple hundred miles, had been purposely covered in water and frozen, had sand poured into every crevice that’s open, etc. And yet, no issues.

I couldn’t care less what someone shoots. People just need to stop saying “it’s personal opinion” when it’s so easy to prove that it’s not.

I grew up on R700 platform and have always been partial to them. Just bought a Tikka this week. Still putting everything together and haven’t shot it yet, but I’ll never regret my decision.


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[BjornF16]

You made a point?

I've noticed most points seem to be lost on you...LOL

 

[bsnedeker]

We’re all a product of our experience, and people should use what they prefer.

I like Rem M7’s. Have spent considerable money getting them built up. But I’m not speaking to a couple of rifles, I’m talking dozens and dozens. Most times they do work ok. But I’ve also had and have seen more issues with Remingtons, and 700 based customs than pretty much every other mainstream rifle type. I’ve watched when half of the Remington and Remington based custom actions would not fire due a few minute dust storm- the Sakos, AI’s, and Tikkas all worked fine. I’ve had two partners have Rem 700 sniper rifles have ND’s when the bolt was closed (both reproducible), have had triggers lock up so often that it was mandated to carry a can of lighter fluid and flush the trigger everyday. Have seen bolt handles come off, have had several factory and aftermarket triggers fail due to snow and ice while backpack hunting several miles from the truck. Have had multiple actions need the base holes redrilled and enlarged due to not being in alignment, etc, etc.

Would most people notice? Probably not. If you’re someone who sits at a bench, drops a round in the action, slowly closes the bolt, fires, lifts their head up, then slowly pulls the bolt back catching the casing to keep it from getting dirty so you can put it back in the box, looks through the spotting scope, fiddles with the turret, stares at the target again, then waits five minutes for the barrel to “cool”, before repeating the whole process again... Yeah, you could shoot a freaking pike gun and it wouldn’t matter. However if you use and manipulate the rifle as they are supposed to be used, it does and problems surface pretty quick.

People get a round that doesn’t feed every once and a while and they think nothing of it. I’ve had several people claim their gun never has malfunctions, and then watch them have feedway stoppages and then immediately ask them about the malfunction- they always try to excuse it away. The reality is it happens and people give an excuse for it.



As for “flawlessly”, this is not-

There’s no shenanigans. I literally walked in and grabbed the first Remington my hand came to, in this case a M7’s with Trigger Tech trigger. First take and you see the bolt bind with ANY lateral pressure. Further, the TT trigger locked up. This wasn’t setup to do that, I’m laughing because it happened. This is supposed to be one of the most reliable triggers for R700’s on the market (and it is). The problem is all 700 triggers have relatively high rate of problems. The last time this rifle was used was in October of 2019 on a WY Antelope hunt. Aka- dusty conditions. After the video today I flushed it out... and lo and behold it now works. You can see that the rifle isn’t covered in dust, not that it should matter- but the smallest debris starts causeing issues.



In contrast-

Again, no setup. Grabbed the closest Tikka to me. No nonsense, no multiple takes, just started running the bolt. This rifle hasn’t been cleaned ever (several thousand rounds), has rode unprotected in the back of trucks, ATV’s, bikes; has been strapped to a pack for a couple hundred miles, had been purposely covered in water and frozen, had sand poured into every crevice that’s open, etc. And yet, no issues.

I couldn’t care less what someone shoots. People just need to stop saying “it’s personal opinion” when it’s so easy to prove that it’s not.

Is it weird that I just want to watch a ton of videos of you cycling bolts like that? That was cool!

 

[BjornF16]

so it’s not sub moa. Thought so.

Naturally, you'd be wrong.

Initial 4 shot sight in group followed by 5 shot group after correcting for zero (taken just before Christmas)


Three 3-shot groups (that would be 9) the following week (which finished my box of Hornady PH):

The gun is better than I am. These are shooting with Swaro 2.4-12x50 (with fixed 100m parallax) at 200 yds, suppressed, off bench with bipod.

edit: parallax distance

 

[KClark]

Is it weird that I just want to watch a ton of videos of you cycling bolts like that? That was cool!

Look for videos of rifle competition in Scandinavia, they use the middle finger on the trigger like Form was doing there and spit out a hail of of fire very accurately, it's impressive to watch. Guess what rifles they don't use?

 

[Ram94]

This made me laugh. Bolt binds up nearly every cycle when he is cycling live shells.


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[N2TRKYS]

We’re all a product of our experience, and people should use what they prefer.

I like Rem M7’s. Have spent considerable money getting them built up. But I’m not speaking to a couple of rifles, I’m talking dozens and dozens. Most times they do work ok. But I’ve also had and have seen more issues with Remingtons, and 700 based customs than pretty much every other mainstream rifle type. I’ve watched when half of the Remington and Remington based custom actions would not fire due a few minute dust storm- the Sakos, AI’s, and Tikkas all worked fine. I’ve had two partners have Rem 700 sniper rifles have ND’s when the bolt was closed (both reproducible), have had triggers lock up so often that it was mandated to carry a can of lighter fluid and flush the trigger everyday. Have seen bolt handles come off, have had several factory and aftermarket triggers fail due to snow and ice while backpack hunting several miles from the truck. Have had multiple actions need the base holes redrilled and enlarged due to not being in alignment, etc, etc.

Would most people notice? Probably not. If you’re someone who sits at a bench, drops a round in the action, slowly closes the bolt, fires, lifts their head up, then slowly pulls the bolt back catching the casing to keep it from getting dirty so you can put it back in the box, looks through the spotting scope, fiddles with the turret, stares at the target again, then waits five minutes for the barrel to “cool”, before repeating the whole process again... Yeah, you could shoot a freaking pike gun and it wouldn’t matter. However if you use and manipulate the rifle as they are supposed to be used, it does and problems surface pretty quick.

People get a round that doesn’t feed every once and a while and they think nothing of it. I’ve had several people claim their gun never has malfunctions, and then watch them have feedway stoppages and then immediately ask them about the malfunction- they always try to excuse it away. The reality is it happens and people give an excuse for it.



As for “flawlessly”, this is not-

There’s no shenanigans. I literally walked in and grabbed the first Remington my hand came to, in this case a M7’s with Trigger Tech trigger. First take and you see the bolt bind with ANY lateral pressure. Further, the TT trigger locked up. This wasn’t setup to do that, I’m laughing because it happened. This is supposed to be one of the most reliable triggers for R700’s on the market (and it is). The problem is all 700 triggers have relatively high rate of problems. The last time this rifle was used was in October of 2019 on a WY Antelope hunt. Aka- dusty conditions. After the video today I flushed it out... and lo and behold it now works. You can see that the rifle isn’t covered in dust, not that it should matter- but the smallest debris starts causeing issues.



In contrast-

Again, no setup. Grabbed the closest Tikka to me. No nonsense, no multiple takes, just started running the bolt. This rifle hasn’t been cleaned ever (several thousand rounds), has rode unprotected in the back of trucks, ATV’s, bikes; has been strapped to a pack for a couple hundred miles, had been purposely covered in water and frozen, had sand poured into every crevice that’s open, etc. And yet, no issues.

I couldn’t care less what someone shoots. People just need to stop saying “it’s personal opinion” when it’s so easy to prove that it’s not.

And I don’t care for people who try to tell me that my guns won’t work, but have never laid their hands on them. Mine have never let me down and hit where I aim them. That’s all that matters to me.
Sorry you have had so much trouble out of yours, but I haven’t had any issues with mine.

 

[Formidilosus]

This made me laugh. Bolt binds up nearly every cycle when he is cycling live shells.

Nah dog. It’s just me being an a-hole and fake news. Couldn’t possibly be that I see couple hundred thousand rounds a year fired from a bunch of different platforms...

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, you single out the Remington 700s for most of your criticism. Are the trigger issues you're talking about a problem with, say the Ruger American? Ruger Hawkeye? Winchester 70? Howa 1500? Are they all unreliable in tough conditions? Can they not handle working the bolt the way you are in that video?

It seems like you like writing about this stuff... it would be interesting to hear about the failures you're seeing with other models. After all, I don't see too many Remington defenders around here, but there are a lot of fans of Kimber, Browing, and others like those I mentioned above.

It’s not that I like writing about it. I want shooters to be informed so they demand more from manufactures, so I stop getting stuff that fails.


Almost all custom actions are Remington based. All trigger issues that apply to. Remington, applies to any action that uses a R700 trigger.


As I wrote in another thread-


Rugar American- noodle for a stock. Small parts issues at times when used heavily. No great replacement stocks. Trigger can be susceptible to dust. Bolts do not bind as much as most however.

Savage, all of them- generally very flexible forend on stocks, problems with extraction and ejection are relatively common with ice and sand. Action and bolts are extremely rough, bind easily, and when run fast feeding problems are not unusual. Detachable mags can be finicky with debris, sand, ice snow. Trigger is adjustable, but when dirty tend to have problems.

Kimber Hunter- all the Kimber 14 point checklist items. Stock is serviceable however, a bit flimsy on the forend. Mags can be a bit finicky and do not feed totally smooth. Trigger is not as easily adjustable, but tends to be reliable. Precision is more consistent than in the past, but still not where it should be. Probably the closest out of this list.


Mossberg- pretty much exactly the same as the RA.

Bergara- Remington triggers. Could just stop right there... But, not made in America, heavy, bolt binds at rear, firing, extraction, and ejection relatively susceptible to snow, ice, sand, and debris. Much better than Remington.

Remington- everything from Bergara, plus poor QC, very spotty precision, poor stocks, barrel and chamber issues, reciever bridges often not machined in alignment, base screw holes often misaligned, bolt handle failure common enough to warrant getting it pinned/welded, etc, etc.


CA- Remington triggers. Precision and QC are spotty. Stock issues are relatively common. Extremely rough action/bolt, brings heavily at rear with any lateral pressure.

Barret Fieldcraft- Remington triggers. Action and bolt can bind with lateral pressure at rear. Feeding can be a bit rough, though malfunctions are rare. Best production true lightweight rifle. If sub 6lb all up is “required”, go TT or Geissele 2 stage and it’s a good choice.

Kimber Montan, MA- see hunter above.

Weatherby Mark V- Precision/barrels can be spotty. Trigger more susceptible to snow, ice, sand, debris. Action can bind though not as bad as most, when shot heavily have seen a couple bolts worn out to the point of falling apart.


Seekins Precision Hunter 2- Remington trigger. Action/bolt binds and can be rough. Some can be difficult to cock.



Now T3x- Extremely reliable and smooth feeding in snow, ice, sand, and with debris. Bolt is very hard to bind at any position. Short bolt throw, easy to cock and close, fast to cycle. Single stack, single feed magazines feed smoothly and reliably even with snow, ice, sand, and debris. Triggers are excellent both in feel and reliability in adverse conditions. Stocks are stiffer than most in the forend, grip is interchangable. Precision is generally very good, best in class is the norm. Barrels are excellent. Issues- drop at heel in the stock. Chintzy for cartridges above 3.5” COAL. Some LA chambered T3’s can have ejection interfered with by scopes having large windage turrets.

Sako and Sauers have similar, if not different, pluses and minuses as Tikka.

 

[Ram94]

Nah dog. It’s just me being an a-hole and fake news. Couldn’t possibly be that I see couple hundred thousand rounds a year fired from a bunch of different platforms...

I am agreeing with you, the bolt does actually hang up in the video. I wasn’t being sarcastic lol


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[Chuckybmd]

Browning xbolt hell’s canyon speed, good value, something you can be proud of. Accurate and lightweight.

 

[16Bore]

Japanese?

 

[Middleofnowhere]

...This rifle hasn’t been cleaned ever (several thousand rounds), has rode unprotected in the back of trucks, ATV’s, bikes; has been strapped to a pack for a couple hundred miles, had been purposely covered in water and frozen, had sand poured into every crevice that’s open, etc. And yet, no issues...

How is that barrel shooting after several thousand rounds?
Are you some kind of a tester? Curious why anyone would do those things to a rifle.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

X-bolts bind up with lateral pressure. Don't know about hells canyon.

 

[Chuckybmd]

Japanese?

Technically yes

 

[Woodrow F Call]

How is that barrel shooting after several thousand rounds?
Are you some kind of a tester? Curious why anyone would do those things to a rifle.

Not many jobs where you get you shoot a lot or see a lot of shooting and make such statements. You might be on a track here.

I actually don't know what he does. I do find him to be accurate, consistent, and lacks investment in the gear.

 

[westsloper]

My experience with Tikkas has been uniformly good. I don't care for the ergonomics of the stocks, so I'm going in a different direction. I have used my Weatherby Vanguard in the desert with success, although I haven't poured sand in the action. The Vanguard is a foreign-built rifle (mine was, at least), but Weatherby is a USA-based company. I'm guessing that the money Weatherby makes on the Vanguard line helps pay for the expense of operating their USA factory where they build the Mark V line and employ American workers.