Am I messing up?

[Jake Larsen]

Thanks for clarifying. I only shoot monos at things that go in the freezer so I'm looking at bullet options pretty differently than you are.

What sort of MV are you getting with a 16.5" 6CM and the 110gr class bullets? I'm at 2970fps in my 18" 25CM with the 107HBC which is way faster than my simulation for the 6CM and 109 indicated at 16.5". It didn't look like you would be able to get much higher than 2700fps before hitting pressure with the variables I was using.

In the 2800fps range without pushing hard at all. I also do most of my shooting at 5-6k, and hunting at 7-9k, so that helps. Way enough to have 1800 fps at 600. I’m one one of those crazy people that will tune my loads to be as close to quick drop as possible. Another reason I like the 6Creed…I can back off the upper end on most loads to find that sweet spot, and still have plenty of sauce for 600.


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[mtnbound]

Thanks for clarifying. I only shoot monos at things that go in the freezer so I'm looking at bullet options pretty differently than you are.

What sort of MV are you getting with a 16.5" 6CM and the 110gr class bullets? I'm at 2970fps in my 18" 25CM with the 107HBC which is way faster than my simulation for the 6CM and 109 indicated at 16.5". It didn't look like you would be able to get much higher than 2700fps before hitting pressure with the variables I was using.

Not a good comparison you are using a light for caliber copper Hammer bullet in 25CM against a regular cup and core in the 6CM.
Using a light for caliber copper in 6CM would likely be in the 3100fps out of a short barrel.

 

[cbuck516]

In the 2800fps range without pushing hard at all. I also do most of my shooting at 5-6k, and hunting at 7-9k, so that helps. Way enough to have 1800 fps at 600. I’m one one of those crazy people that will tune my loads to be as close to quick drop as possible. Another reason I like the 6Creed…I can back off the upper end on most loads to find that sweet spot, and still have plenty of sauce for 600.


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Yeah, that sounds like where I've been hunting for the last few years, usually around 8400' and 23inhg. I went up closer to 11,000 feet this last fall and ended up getting a bull with my bow two days before rifle opener. I was pretty stoked to get my first bow kill but I really wanted to see what that 107HBC would do on a bull. I did take my 25-06AI on that trip though since I hadn't yet seen how the 107HBC performed on anything smaller. Now that I've seen the 25CM on elk first hand I would have no issue using it on a bull tag.

 

[cbuck516]

Not a good comparison you are using a light for caliber copper Hammer bullet in 25CM against a regular cup and core in the 6CM.
Using a light for caliber copper in 6CM would likely be in the 3100fps out of a short barrel.

The 107HBC is heavy for caliber in that bullet design. The light for caliber Hammers are way faster than the 107HBC. I developed a load with the 90AH and backed it down to 3200fps where it was shooting 1/4MOA groups. I hit pressure at 3350fps with single based powder.

 

[streamerfish]

Yes you are. This forum has lost its mind with the small caliber nonsense. You don't need a 50 bmg, and yes big magnums don't make up for bad shot placement but big bullets do more damage than small ones. Also frangible bullets do not penetrate very well. Yes I am aware of the 223 thread. Somebody always comes along and says they have a new better way of doing things and gain acolytes. Best thing is to be proficient with the most powerful rifle you can (withing reason) and shoot bullets that stay together and exit.

Nobody has to shoot a small caliber...its still Merica (i think).

Fragmenting bullets penetrate plenty deep enough, far and away plenty of data on this, and from outside legit sources too if you don't like the thousands of data points on this and other sites. We aren't talking about shooting elk up the bum here, or a hard angle on an elephant. We are generally talking about getting both lungs in a deer/elk/antelope/bear/caribou...whatever. There isn't an angle of shot, assuming your going into the ribcage, where pretty much anything outside of a varmit bullet isn't reaching both lungs. Maybe you aren't getting an exit, maybe your not plastering the off side shoulder or whatever, but your getting both lungs.....

It's nothing new. I mean, the partition, which is pretty widely regarded as one of the best big game bullets ever made, by design, is a cup and core design on the front half, designed for rapid expansion/fragmentation of around 40% of its weight. And its been around forever. The old Core Lokts fragmented like crazy at higher velocities at least 50%. Ballistic Tips frag around 50% or more depending.....

Shooting bullets that exit have zero implication on the lethality of the bullet. Maybe you now get the potential for more of a blood trail, but that has nothing to do with lethality.

The more a bullet stays together, the smaller the wound cavity your going to get. Period. Even the Barnes guys, if you listen to their podcasts, almost uniformly, shoot their LRX bullet, specifically because it expands more then the TSX, TTSX and it can and will shed its petals, giving them at least some fragmentation to help create more of a permanent wound cavity.

Doesn't mean they won't work, doesn't mean they aren't good, or that you shouldn't use them... but lets all be intellectually honest with what the bullets do or don't do.

What people "should" do, is buy a caliber of rifle that they can comfortably shoot without any signs of flinching or anticipating, that they will shoot often, that they practice with as much as possible. (Or have a smaller practice rifle, that they shoot all the time, but regardless, you need to shoot your meat gun, more then 20 shots a year if you want to be better). And try as much as possible to practice hunting scenario type shooting, under some kind of pressure, preferably against the clock, maybe with others watching them to amp up the pressure. Something that allows them to preferably see that shot and result, and allow for very quick follow up shots, cause your still gonna miss sometimes, and even if you don't miss, short of shooting a missile, animals don't always fall over dead instantly.

 

[streamerfish]

So my question is what do you define as being able to shoot well or be proficient? I regularly ring steel at 800 first shot with my 3006, but I all because this year I shot a buck at 330 and it wasn't a perfect shot (single lung) but he stayed for another shot but I missed my chance because recoil jumped the gun off my rest so I had to walk up and finish it up close after 15 ish min. I'm confident with my 6.5creed I have I would've seen him after the first shot.

I only know he stayed because my hunting buddy watched him stand there for 30sec before walking behind some juniper

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I mean, hard to say exactly without being there......

But this sounds exactly like a situation where having a gun with less recoil, that allows you to stay in the scope and stay on the animal, would be much more ideal.

Maybe a not ideal shooting position added to the situation, but stuff like that happens in the field.

 

[BuckSmasher]

Nobody has to shoot a small caliber...its still Merica (i think).

Fragmenting bullets penetrate plenty deep enough, far and away plenty of data on this, and from outside legit sources too if you don't like the thousands of data points on this and other sites. We aren't talking about shooting elk up the bum here, or a hard angle on an elephant. We are generally talking about getting both lungs in a deer/elk/antelope/bear/caribou...whatever. There isn't an angle of shot, assuming your going into the ribcage, where pretty much anything outside of a varmit bullet isn't reaching both lungs. Maybe you aren't getting an exit, maybe your not plastering the off side shoulder or whatever, but your getting both lungs.....

It's nothing new. I mean, the partition, which is pretty widely regarded as one of the best big game bullets ever made, by design, is a cup and core design on the front half, designed for rapid expansion/fragmentation of around 40% of its weight. And its been around forever. The old Core Lokts fragmented like crazy at higher velocities at least 50%. Ballistic Tips frag around 50% or more depending.....

Shooting bullets that exit have zero implication on the lethality of the bullet. Maybe you now get the potential for more of a blood trail, but that has nothing to do with lethality. Disagree. A bullet that penetrates less creates less of a wound.

The more a bullet stays together, the smaller the wound cavity your going to get. Period. Even the Barnes guys, if you listen to their podcasts, almost uniformly, shoot their LRX bullet, specifically because it expands more then the TSX, TTSX and it can and will shed its petals, giving them at least some fragmentation to help create more of a permanent wound cavity. Disagree. A bullet that penetrates less creates less of a wound.

Doesn't mean they won't work, doesn't mean they aren't good, or that you shouldn't use them... but lets all be intellectually honest with what the bullets do or don't do.

What people "should" do, is buy a caliber of rifle that they can comfortably shoot without any signs of flinching or anticipating, that they will shoot often, that they practice with as much as possible. (Or have a smaller practice rifle, that they shoot all the time, but regardless, you need to shoot your meat gun, more then 20 shots a year if you want to be better). And try as much as possible to practice hunting scenario type shooting, under some kind of pressure, preferably against the clock, maybe with others watching them to amp up the pressure. Something that allows them to preferably see that shot and result, and allow for very quick follow up shots, cause your still gonna miss sometimes, and even if you don't miss, short of shooting a missile, animals don't always fall over dead instantly.

Interesting write up. Disagree with several of your assertions. Quit using any non-bonded bullets when I shot a whitetail buck in Lampasas county Texas at a quartering away shot with a .243 95 grain ballistic tip about 60 yards away. Buck dropped at the shot, then got up and hobbled 10 yards or so while I was climing down from the tripod and couldn't shoot. Entered in front of the second to last rib, jellied one lung and thats it. Maybe 7 or 8 inches in penetration. Never found anything bigger than flakes of the bullet. Unacceptable performance.

 

[Tmac]

Have murdered plenty of cows with a 25-06 using 115-120 gr bullets. Most exited. The 25CM with 134’s should be lethal.

My grandsons have bang flopped them with a 223 Rem and 270 Win, no discernible damage difference between 77TMK and 140 Trophy Bonded Tip. All fairly close high velocity impacts. They die quick when hit right. Bulls are bigger but no harder to kill if hit right. That 134 in the lungs will end the party quickly.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Interesting write up. Disagree with several of your assertions. Quit using any non-bonded bullets when I shot a whitetail buck in Lampasas county Texas at a quartering away shot with a .243 95 grain ballistic tip about 60 yards away. Buck dropped at the shot, then got up and hobbled 10 yards or so while I was climing down from the tripod and couldn't shoot. Entered in front of the second to last rib, jellied one lung and thats it. Maybe 7 or 8 inches in penetration. Never found anything bigger than flakes of the bullet. Unacceptable performance.

Which bullet exactly was that? Not all non bonded bullets work the same way on game. Some tend do exactly what you described.


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[streamerfish]

Interesting write up. Disagree with several of your assertions. Quit using any non-bonded bullets when I shot a whitetail buck in Lampasas county Texas at a quartering away shot with a .243 95 grain ballistic tip about 60 yards away. Buck dropped at the shot, then got up and hobbled 10 yards or so while I was climing down from the tripod and couldn't shoot. Entered in front of the second to last rib, jellied one lung and thats it. Maybe 7 or 8 inches in penetration. Never found anything bigger than flakes of the bullet. Unacceptable performance.

I'm not going to argue which bullets can or cannot kill, because pretty much all of them can. No questioning that at all. Not gonna argue against using Bonded bullets either, they generally work fine as long as you know what your getting.

But.....Whats the bigger wound cavity....at .5" diameter 30" long wound channel...or a 2" diameter 16" long cavity with pieces fragging off in all directions....

Or simply put, the bullet that makes the bigger wound, makes the bigger wound. A bullet can penetrate "less" yet create a exponentially larger wound cavity/channel.

A longer wound channel is just a longer wound channel, if its a long, skinny, wound channel it isn't doing nearly as much damage. Were are talking about a 3 dimensional cavity here, not just length...

It's a bit funny that your exact example is the 95grain .243 ballistic tip also. If i remember correctly it was Mr. Root that helped develop that specific bullet, for elk hunting, with his .243. Personally I used to use it as my go to deer round, but i quit using it because it was too dang destructive. I got tired of blowing out both shoulders if i got a bit far forward. And I always seemed to loose most of one shoulder along with the chest cavity being completely wiped out. And with a 75% pass through rate.

I'm not questioning your individual moment. Weird shit happens.

But the Ballistic tip isn't even an extreme fragging bullet, its a variable thickness jacket, cup and core design that's going to hold together pretty well except for maybe in extreme velocity cases, do some fragging, mostly heavy expansion, and generally penetrate deeper then the match style cup and core bullets alot of people are talking about. At "standard" velocities its going to be closer to your bonded bullet in performance then say a TMK or ELDM.

 

[streamerfish]

Which bullet exactly was that? Not all non bonded bullets work the same way on game. Some tend do exactly what you described.


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He said ballistic tip. Its not a high fragmentation bullet.

 

[streamerfish]

Just thinking about it more...I havent run the math, but its potentially possible to take a hard enough angle of shot that the bullet trajectory would never reach the second lung....

Either way. The nosler ballistic tip by design is a hunting bullet that is gonna penetrate deeper then a match style cup and core bullet.

But, now im curious on the angle thing. Im gonna look into that one a bit and report back

 

[Jake Larsen]

He said ballistic tip. Its not a high fragmentation bullet.

Yep missed that. Definitely weird for that bullet. I’ve used those before, and got closer to bonded bullet performance than many other cup & core style. But weird stuff can happen, which is why a sample size of 1 is not enough to draw conclusions from.


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