Alaska Sheep Hunt Pricing

[cgasner1]

When can you fly me out?


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[alexanderg23]

I think the biggest problem will be the guys that want to quit early because they are tired and hurting and also would now like to avoid the trophy fee.

If you want to make sure they get what they pay for maybe 100% up front and then a 1/3 the cost return fee the next year if they hunt hard and but want to try again.

 

[aussiehunter]

In Europe and most of the Central Asian hunting destinations this is the norm and how they conduct business.

You have a cost which is associated with the hunt which you pay , then if you get a trophy you pay for the trophy per the size of it ( in europe it is like this and Kazakhstan you pay for the size of it either be on cm , weight of antlers etccc or CIC points ) and if not successfull then you pay no trophy fees...

If you develop a good relationship with the outfitter some even let you come back the following year to try again for free and you pay a troohy fee if you get your desired animal.

Some outffiters even pay you everything back if they can not get you a shot at 300m or less. ( It's a good selling point but they all can get you in a shooting position to 300m )

I like the way you would set it up and if i had that much to spend i would book with you in a heart beat.

In saying all this you need to ask for $15k upfront and rest once the animal is harvested whoch is a fair ask. Even if they come more for a hike then anything else, least you have $15k for it and not just $8k.

 

[cbeard64]

Just curious why putting a client onto a legal ram under 400yds would not work in your opinion for payment whether they kill or not? I have done all that is required of a guide up to that point and contractually as well. It now rests with the hunter who SHOULD have made prior preparation of taking a 400 yd and under shot. I guide with a laser rangefinder; my communication will be upfront on the legalities of the ram and the exact range he is at. As a licensed registered guided in Alaska, I have a lot more riding on a sub legal ram taken by a client than the client does so I NEVER shoot borderline legal rams period.
I know 99 percent of the other guides and outfitters contracts read like they do. Ive been working for these same outfits for 20yrs, and now that I have my own guide business, I want to change this idea on price structure, opportunity etc.
I have asked for opinions, and I would respectively like to hear yours since you have brought it up and appears you have experience sheep hunting. But saying it "will never work" and leaving it at that leaves me wondering why it won't work in your opinion.
Thanks in advance.

Mainly because your criteria is subjective. If the ram is borderline a client could simply disagree with you and then you have set yourself up for a “my word vs. his” dispute that can never be resolved short of legal action. Even with video evidence.

Even the range would have to be proven. If it’s a ram the client decides he doesn’t want to shoot but it’s legal, you will have to document the range with video evidence also.

If your criteria can’t be proven conclusively on the mountain beyond dispute, IMO you are simply setting yourself up for potential problems that could be costly for you in terms of both time and money.

There are probably other scenarios that could arise that neither of us are thinking of.

Your price structure has been done before and used to be the norm, in fact. But I am not aware of any outfit using your “putting client within a certain range of a legal ram” criteria. Almost certainly because of the subjectivity factor. I simply don’t see any need to open up an avenue that could lead to disputes when there is an easier path (“draw blood and done”) available that outfitters have used for decades. That’s all.

When I said it would “never” work, I should have made clear that I was speaking in terms of it working in the long run, not that all clients would dispute your judgment.

I love your intentions as they seem very laudable, but IMO in your zeal to set yourself apart from other outfitters, you are proposing steps that are not necessary for you to do that.

In short, a guide with a 90% success rate doesn’t need to go to a “base cost + trophy fee” model to attract clients. They will come to you because of your successes on a tough to get animal taken in a competitive environment. Sheep hunters value success more than anything else when looking for an outfitter. Especially good sheep hunters.

IMO a competent guide with your record of success could charge the going rate in full, have success, and leave your hunters smiling and satisfied at the end of the hunt anyway. So I just think you may be overthinking all this and making it more complicated/harder on yourself than necessary.

That’s all.

 

[cbeard64]

I am a moderately experienced sheep hunter. I am a good shot but by no means an expert marksman. My goal is always to get as close in as possible. I have always taken on faith that this is my guide’s goal also. My shots on rams have been at 100, 210, 220, and 300 yards. All successful. Simply put, I don’t want to take a 400 yard shot if I can help it.

Think about this scenario: a no brainer ram bedded on a bench below you at 400 yards. But an easily doable stalk will put the client 175 yards above him. Your client wants to close the distance so you begin the stalk, get within 200 yards of him and the wind swirls/grizzly comes out/ewe spots you and the ram busts out.

Technically, the client had a “decent chance for a successful shot” under 400 but wanted to get as close as possible. Does he pay your fee? Is that something he should really be thinking about or should he be free to concentrate only on the goal of getting in as close as possible?

Even if you are flexible in such a scenario, all such questions would have to be discussed beforehand and not all scenarios can be anticipated. And maybe you and the client would not agree in all cases. Again, subjectively is not your friend.

 

[ColeyG]

then overbooking and killing all the legal rams for the almighty dollar.

I love your intentions as they seem very laudable, but IMO in your zeal to set yourself apart from other outfitters, you are proposing steps that are not necessary for you to do that.

In short, a guide with a 90% success rate doesn’t need to go to a “base cost + trophy fee” model to attract clients. They will come to you because of your successes on a tough to get animal taken in a competitive environment. Sheep hunters value success more than anything else when looking for an outfitter. Especially good sheep hunters.

IMO a competent guide with your record of success could charge the going rate in full, have success, and leave your hunters smiling and satisfied at the end of the hunt anyway. So I just think you may be overthinking all this and making it more complicated/harder on yourself than necessary.

That’s all.

This.

I would assume that YOU don't feel that YOU need additional skin the game to offer the client your best effort and a quality trip, so it seems to me that some of what you are proposing would be more applicable to the industry as a whole instead of needing to incentivize yourself to give it your all.

As such, it seems to me that the only one that stands to lose something with your model, is you. If you continue to fully invest yourself in your clients success and are reasonably confident your success rate will stand, sell your trip for what it is worth.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Trophy fee universally means you killed or wounded the target animal. If you collected 4 trophy fees, it means you killed or wounded 4 different rams in your hunting area. Barring the occasional situation where client on first hunt wounds a ram and client on 2nd hunt kills him.

If you are going to start charging people based on distances, call it what it is.....a proximity fee. You could theoretically find 1 single legal ram in your hunting area, and take an undetermined amount of hunters to within 400 yards of the same ram momentarily, never taking that ram off the mountain, all the while getting paid the same as an outfitter who killed/wounded a ram every one of those times. I know this is not your intention, but the structure you propose lends itself to this possibility.

 

[DBMR]

Trophy fee universally means you killed or wounded the target animal. If you collected 4 trophy fees, it means you killed or wounded 4 different rams in your hunting area. Barring the occasional situation where client on first hunt wounds a ram and client on 2nd hunt kills him.

If you are going to start charging people based on distances, call it what it is.....a proximity fee. You could theoretically find 1 single legal ram in your hunting area, and take an undetermined amount of hunters to within 400 yards of the same ram momentarily, never taking that ram off the mountain, all the while getting paid the same as an outfitter who killed/wounded a ram every one of those times. I know this is not your intention, but the structure you propose lends itself to this possibility.

Well, I get what you are saying on the definition, but I do have to draw the line on a legal ram that is presented to the client. 400 yds was a number I feel all sheep hunters should be proficient at harvesting a ram at just as they should be physically and mentally fit. At the point a legal ram is presented at 400yds and under, it is the hunter's choice at that point if they take it or not, but I've done what I am contractually obligated to do and the $20K trophy fee would be paid whether, harvested, shot at, passed on or wounded. If passed on for a better ram I will do my best to find what the hunter is looking for on the rest of the hunt days, but again the $20K trophy fee is due whether we draw blood on another sheep or not.

Nobody who cares about clients (as you have read in my previous posts and for that matter the subject of this thread..........you can see from my price structure..........client satisfaction is one of my top concerns) is going to "theoretically" do anything like what you have suggested so I won't even comment on that.

Where I differ is on your last above example of that same outfitter on a particular hunt who can't produce anything and still gets paid their full asking rate. How is that fair? It's fair because the hunter is contractually obligated to have paid for that with no kind of "guarantee" and the hunter knew this ahead of time. My hunts.......no matter what that $20K fee's are called..........have a type of guarantee associated with them that the hunter knows ahead of time.

 

[DBMR]

This.

I would assume that YOU don't feel that YOU need additional skin the game to offer the client your best effort and a quality trip, so it seems to me that some of what you are proposing would be more applicable to the industry as a whole instead of needing to incentivize yourself to give it your all.

As such, it seems to me that the only one that stands to lose something with your model, is you. If you continue to fully invest yourself in your clients success and are reasonably confident your success rate will stand, sell your trip for what it is worth.

Sorry man, no clue what you are trying to say on your first paragraph.

I have no issue "loosing" something if I can't produce results bottom line. My success rates over the last 24years of sheep hunting and guiding speak for themselves but that does not help the client when a legal ram on a future hunt can't be found no matter how much honest effort was put in by me or the client.

 

[cbeard64]

I admitted don’t really understand your reply fully, but it sounds as if your position is that you expect the client in my scenario to either take a shot at 400 even though there is a reasonable chance to close the distance or assume the $$$ risk if he wants to try and get closer. (My scenario did not involve “passing” on the ram, but trying to get as close as reasonably possible. The fact that you would define that as “passing” simply reveals the subjectivity of your criteria.)

That would be unacceptable to me, and I’m guessing many other hunters.

Seems to me that (as is often the case on these forums) your mind is really pretty much made up to do it your way and what you really are seeking is positive reinforcement that your way is the best way instead of honest feedback.

At any rate, good luck to you in your venture.

 

[ColeyG]

Sorry man, no clue what you are trying to say on your first paragraph.

I have no issue "loosing" something if I can't produce results bottom line. My success rates over the last 24years of sheep hunting and guiding speak for themselves but that does not help the client when a legal ram on a future hunt can't be found no matter how much honest effort was put in by me or the client.

Sorry that was unclear. I'll try again.

It seems to me you are committed to giving your best effort regardless of what you get paid. That is noble. I think your compensation should be tied to your best effort and good decision making. Your past results speak for themselves, and as such, it doesn't seem fair to me that you'd be penalized for doing everything right and well if a ram doesn't show up, which is going to be an increasingly common scenario in the years to come.

As others have pointed out, the subjectivity of what was/is an acceptable shot opportunity for the client also seem exceptionally problematic.

Best of luck and I am sure that things will work out for you one way or another.

 

[DBMR]

I admitted don’t really understand your reply fully, but it sounds as if your position is that you expect the client in my scenario to either take a shot at 400 even though there is a reasonable chance to close the distance or assume the $$$ risk if he wants to try and get closer. (My scenario did not involve “passing” on the ram, but trying to get as close as reasonably possible. The fact that you would define that as “passing” simply reveals the subjectivity of your criteria.)

That would be unacceptable to me, and I’m guessing many other hunters.

Seems to me that (as is often the case on these forums) your mind is really pretty much made up to do it your way and what you really are seeking is positive reinforcement that your way is the best way instead of honest feedback.

At any rate, good luck to you in your venture.

No my mind is not made up. I appreciate your feedback and conversation as I am able to explain a little more with the scenarios you have laid out. I've actually gotten a lot of ideas on how and what i should do for this pricing guarantee through all of these different posts.

What I can't understand from some experienced sheep hunters is why offering some kind of "shot opportunity guarantee" is such a negative thing?
Just like with your above scenario...........wanting to get closer, blowing the stock, etc, etc.........no matter what you do or don't do, successful or not...........you would have paid the full rate anyway with the traditional $30K or more sheep hunt with no guarantee of anything am I correct or am I way off thinking??

Yes I have put a few stipulations on what I consider a "trophy fee" needing collecting but you as the client....you still have more of a guarantee with this pricing structure than how virtually every other outfitter is charging.

 

[DBMR]

Sorry that was unclear. I'll try again.

It seems to me you are committed to giving your best effort regardless of what you get paid. That is noble. I think your compensation should be tied to your best effort and good decision making. Your past results speak for themselves, and as such, it doesn't seem fair to me that you'd be penalized for doing everything right and well if a ram doesn't show up, which is going to be an increasingly common scenario in the years to come.

As others have pointed out, the subjectivity of what was/is an acceptable shot opportunity for the client also seem exceptionally problematic.

Best of luck and I am sure that things will work out for you one way or another.

Thanks for taking the time to clarifing. Appreciate it.

 

[IBen]

The “traditional 30k” is from an outfit that has 1-3 planes, a lodge, packers, assistant guides etc. (actually more like 26k) a one man guide and client are pricing way under that. Thats essentially what you’ll be and thats essentially what you’ll have to be with an 8k hunt price. If I were you'd id be doing sheep hunts around 18k. Or 14 and 4 or 15 and 5.
And you keep saying the guide outfitter doesnt have any skin in the game. When the clients ask what your sheep season was like the previous year and you tell them we didnt get a sheep you wont book a sheep hunt unless at a discount. So in the end the market has a way of working itself out and thats why things are the way they are. A lot of peoples integrity disappears with 20k on the line. Ive seen peoples integrity disappear for 2800. But nothing is stopping you from trying it and finding out for yourself. I think you could work ok but the one time it doesn't it wont be worth it.

 

[DBMR]

The “traditional 30k” is from an outfit that has 1-3 planes, a lodge, packers, assistant guides etc. (actually more like 26k) a one man guide and client are pricing way under that. Thats essentially what you’ll be and thats essentially what you’ll have to be with an 8k hunt price. If I were you'd id be doing sheep hunts around 18k. Or 14 and 4 or 15 and 5.
And you keep saying the guide outfitter doesnt have any skin in the game. When the clients ask what your sheep season was like the previous year and you tell them we didnt get a sheep you wont book a sheep hunt unless at a discount. So in the end the market has a way of working itself out and thats why things are the way they are. A lot of peoples integrity disappears with 20k on the line. Ive seen peoples integrity disappear for 2800. But nothing is stopping you from trying it and finding out for yourself. I think you could work ok but the one time it doesn't it wont be worth it.

Ill agree to disagree. Ive been in this business for 20years in Alaska and what you have quoted is not even close to current pricing.
The current outfitters I work for are $35-45K with nothing what you have described. No lodges, planes, packers etc.

 

[IBen]

Ill agree to disagree. Ive been in this business for 20years in Alaska and what you have quoted is not even close to current pricing.
The current outfitters I work for are $35-45K with nothing what you have described. No lodges, planes, packers etc.

But its not alaska state land otc is it?

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

I admitted don’t really understand your reply fully, but it sounds as if your position is that you expect the client in my scenario to either take a shot at 400 even though there is a reasonable chance to close the distance or assume the $$$ risk if he wants to try and get closer. (My scenario did not involve “passing” on the ram, but trying to get as close as reasonably possible. The fact that you would define that as “passing” simply reveals the subjectivity of your criteria.)

That would be unacceptable to me, and I’m guessing many other hunters.

Seems to me that (as is often the case on these forums) your mind is really pretty much made up to do it your way and what you really are seeking is positive reinforcement that your way is the best way instead of honest feedback.

At any rate, good luck to you in your venture.

What he is saying I believe is that he got you close. You wanted to get closer. Regardless if you lose it at 400 or 175yds, you got within shooting distance, therefore the fee is charged.

 

[DBMR]

But its not alaska state land otc is it?

Thats not what you posted. You said, planes, lodges, packers, assistant guides.
You are correct those areas are on OTC nonresident federal concessions.
I priced my hunts with the idea of my hunts not being a pristine limited resident pressure sole use concession.
Plenty of state land operations that are in the high 20's that don't include airfare or any type of gurantee. And those will be increasing in the years to come.

Again, Ill agree to disagree with you.

 

[Doc Holliday]

My hunts.......no matter what that $20K fee's are called..........have a type of guarantee associated with them that the hunter knows ahead of time.

As @cbeard64 mentioned, there are too many variables....are you going to carry a little hourglass and then when a ram is within 400 yards, look at the client and flip it over and say "if the ram is still there when the sand is gone, you owe me $20K"? What if the wind is blowing sideways at 30mph? What if the only presented shot was frontal? etc

I think what would accomplish your intended goal of "caring about the client", without the risk or fanfare is, you require all money paid before the start of the hunt. If they show up in shape, ready to grind, and give it their all throughout the hunt, and you don't get them a shot opportunity at a legal ram (due to 1. a lack of rams in the area - which is perhaps your main concern, or 2. your inability to find them - impossible...is this the guarantee?), then you can choose to give them money back. If you have to practically drag them up the hills, or for whatever reason they are a "bad client", then don't.

 

[cbeard64]

I’m done talking about the potential problems but I did want to add one thing about an issue brought up earlier: the way the outfitters back in the day insured they would be paid the trophy fee was to have us bring separate certified checks made out to them in the amount of the trophy fee(s) of the animals we were hunting. If you didn’t take an animal he just gave you the check back. (Mine usually didn’t even ask to see them.)