Alaska Sheep Hunt Pricing

[cbeard64]

Yeah the “putting client in front of a legal sheep within 400 yards” part of the equation will never work for any number of reasons. Trophy fee = animal taken/wounded is best way to go. Hunt over if blood drawn. That’s the way 99% of contracts read, and for good reason.

Both take their risks: hunter takes risk of wounding, outfitter takes the risk of clean miss.

 

[cbeard64]

If you can advertise 33 of 34 on rams and plan on only doing a few hunts, then the more I think about it the more it makes sense just to charge the going rate of around 30K. You should have zero issues staying booked up and demand will only grow if your success rate remains near 100%.

I mean, I guess good on you if you just want to help out some hunters by lowering the entry cost barrier, but it seems wholly unnecessary. Capitalism is capitalism and you have every right to play by the rules of supply and demand as they currently exist. (If you have a family and are not independently wealthy, it might even be said you have an obligation to do so, but that’s your business.)

If just helping out folks is a goal, you can always donate part of your earnings to any charitable cause of your choice. Which would ensure the help actually goes to someone who needs it.

 

[diamond10x]

I think this is a great idea. It's more in line with guided hunts for other species. In all actuality its no different than guys coming up to Alaska to hunt x, then being charged a trophy fee for killing y or z.

With some tweaking of your definition of "opportunity" I think this is an excellent idea. I would like to see others go this way, as stated it would put more on the line incentive wise for guides/outfitters who already charge 30K+.

It seems the biggest criticisms/blowback you're getting is from folks who have already paid to hunt sheep. My biggest concern would be other outfits doing this price breakdown, then overbooking and killing all the legal rams for the almighty dollar.

 

[WalterH]

then overbooking and killing all the legal rams for the almighty dollar.

That has already been happening for a long, long time.

 

[TXCO]

This is similar to how many hunts outside the US work. A base or daily rate plus trophy fees. I prefer trophy fees over both parties not having skin in the game. I think you'll find your base cost probably needs to be higher but you have my attention regardless. I never thought Id book an alaska sheep hunt unless it was a draw taq for many of the reasons already mentioned.

My issue with booking an alaska sheep hunt is the amount on pressure from other guides and residents in addition to no license caps (except draw areas) and a declining population/accessible area it seems. In Canada, the outfitters own the areas exclusive outfitting rights, have a government quota that is managed and no other outfitters can then hunt there. Not to mention resident pressure is usually significantly lower than Alaska.

The high pricing with a relative low barrier to entry in Alaska and the fact anyone can just say "sorry thats why they call it hunting" has really brought a lot of bad actors into the business. They just want to cash checks.

 

[DBMR]

Yeah the “putting client in front of a legal sheep within 400 yards” part of the equation will never work for any number of reasons. Trophy fee = animal taken/wounded is best way to go. Hunt over if blood drawn. That’s the way 99% of contracts read, and for good reason.

Both take their risks: hunter takes risk of wounding, outfitter takes the risk of clean miss.

Just curious why putting a client onto a legal ram under 400yds would not work in your opinion for payment whether they kill or not? I have done all that is required of a guide up to that point and contractually as well. It now rests with the hunter who SHOULD have made prior preparation of taking a 400 yd and under shot. I guide with a laser rangefinder; my communication will be upfront on the legalities of the ram and the exact range he is at. As a licensed registered guided in Alaska, I have a lot more riding on a sub legal ram taken by a client than the client does so I NEVER shoot borderline legal rams period.
I know 99 percent of the other guides and outfitters contracts read like they do. Ive been working for these same outfits for 20yrs, and now that I have my own guide business, I want to change this idea on price structure, opportunity etc.
I have asked for opinions, and I would respectively like to hear yours since you have brought it up and appears you have experience sheep hunting. But saying it "will never work" and leaving it at that leaves me wondering why it won't work in your opinion.
Thanks in advance.

 

[DBMR]

This is similar to how many hunts outside the US work. A base or daily rate plus trophy fees. I prefer trophy fees over both parties not having skin in the game. I think you'll find your base cost probably needs to be higher but you have my attention regardless. I never thought Id book an alaska sheep hunt unless it was a draw taq for many of the reasons already mentioned.

My issue with booking an alaska sheep hunt is the amount on pressure from other guides and residents in addition to no license caps (except draw areas) and a declining population/accessible area it seems. In Canada, the outfitters own the areas exclusive outfitting rights, have a government quota that is managed and no other outfitters can then hunt there. Not to mention resident pressure is usually significantly lower than Alaska.

The high pricing with a relative low barrier to entry in Alaska and the fact anyone can just say "sorry thats why they call it hunting" has really brought a lot of bad actors into the business. They just want to cash checks.

You have nailed all the reasons why I want to price structure my future hunts like I plan to do. The guide//outfitter NEEDS to have skin in the game. This (in my humble opinion) might bring back some integrity to a profession that has a lot of questionable ethics.

I have guided 34 rifle sheep hunts and have been successful on 33. Ive taken 13 of my own harvested rams.
Is sheep hunting tougher the last few years in AK? Yes
Can you kill good legal rams? Yes
Are there crowded conditions in Alaska........sometimes....... but for the cost difference in Canadian hunts.......that will have to be something the hunter puts a value on. I know that Canadian Dall hunts will be at or above $60K very very soon. Is double the price of one of my successful hunts worth it? That is something the hunter will have to decide. I know that I have preliminary booked 6-8 hunters from previously guided successful clients (and my one non successful client last year) and have not even discussed pricing with these past clients. These hunts will be stretched out over the next 4 years as I will do my part and only bring 2 hunters max per year.

Thanks for your opinions in this. Appreciate the feedback.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

As a client I love this idea.
As a business I hate it.

This is putting all the pressure on the guide. Imagine. You it bust your ass with a client that is lazy or entitled. They don’t reach your parameters and you can’t get them into that next step of payment. You don’t make money.

In some ways it makes me want to go with someone with a scale like this. It’s almost like a warranty.

But no way would I want to work for this scale unless I have a guaranteed pay per hunt.

 

[DBMR]

As a client I love this idea.
As a business I hate it.

This is putting all the pressure on the guide. Imagine. You it bust your ass with a client that is lazy or entitled. They don’t reach your parameters and you can’t get them into that next step of payment. You don’t make money.

In some ways it makes me want to go with someone with a scale like this. It’s almost like a warranty.

But no way would I want to work for this scale unless I have a guaranteed pay per hunt.

You are correct, it is like a warranty.

I've expressed it before, I just fundamentally can't charge for a product that I don't produce (within reason......and I have stated those parameters)

But I plan to have some kind of language that you need to be physically and mentally prepared. I know that is subjective, but I also am doing so few hunts a year, I plan to interview my clients prior to booking these hunts. Again, in the pre planning stages but I appreciate your input. Thanks

 

[GreyBeck]

sounds great. and clearly my son will pay for his sheep hunt on his own! I'm probably in your target audience if i can find the time to make it to Alaska to hunt. I'm willing to pay a premium for the time and resources someone who lives there can provide. the harvest is just a part of it. i can see how there may be questions about what one considers an opportunity @ 400yards....or a trophy for that matter.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

You are correct, it is like a warranty.

I've expressed it before, I just fundamentally can't charge for a product that I don't produce (within reason......and I have stated those parameters)

But I plan to have some kind of language that you need to be physically and mentally prepared. I know that is subjective, but I also am doing so few hunts a year, I plan to interview my clients prior to booking these hunts. Again, in the pre planning stages but I appreciate your input. Thanks

That would be a way around it. You interview them and almost like you choose each other.

I am a teacher. I’ve tutored before on the side with a similar pay scale. I wouldn’t take payment unless we saw growth. I stopped that after a season. lol

Reason why, I can put a lot of effort and if it isn’t reciprocating relationship then I shouldn’t be penalized.

I really like your idea as a client.
What I don’t like…is only a few hunts a year. I might be ready this year but not 5 down the road.

 

[DBMR]

Can you make a living at $8k per client if all were unsuccessful?

I assume you would have 2 hunts Aug 10-20, Aug 20-Sept 10.
If you had 8 total clients, that would total only $64k gross for the entire sheep season.

$8K covers my overhead and 10 days in the field for me. The $20K would be a bonus. But my overall avg have been very successful over the years. I only plan to do one or two sheep hunts max per year. I'm not a "full time guide" and like most guides in AK have other business ventures.

 

[DBMR]

so have you been doing this pricing for 20 years or have been assistant guiding for 20 years? Are you the OP posting from a different account? Assistant guides can’t do hunt contracts.

My accounts are linked together (DBMR on my computer and Double Broomed Mtn Rifles on my phone......not a big tech guy sorry). Trying to combine them but not worked out.

Anyway yes, I am well aware of the legalities in Alaska on contracting hunts. Ive been a resident of Alaska sheep hunting for 24yrs, I have been an assistant guiding for 20 of those 24 years and will be starting my own registered guide business in 2024.

 

[DBMR]

I greatly appreciate the opinions and the feedback. As with most people I don't necessarily agree with all the opinions but have taken them to point and will think of the positives and negatives and for some of the ideas I never thought of.

I will be at the Wild Sheep Show in Reno in Jan from the 17-21st as I have been attending that show for the last 20years. I will also be at Dallas Safari on the 14th of Jan only. If anyone would like to meet up at either of those two shows, I'll gladly talk with you. I have a lot of knowledge I would like to pass on for the "unsuspecting" nonresident shopping/looking for sheep hunts. This industry at times does not lend itself to the most honest folks out there, with plenty of "rams sold" when outfitters know darn well those rams are not available, crowded conditions when hunts were sold as "pristine resident free/other guides nonexistent experience and so on.

One has to only look at our recently closed GMU 19C for nonresidents. Many (not all) of those outfitters out there selling hunts were guilty of both the above examples. If you have known me or read any of my historical posts, I warned nonresidents this closure was coming no matter what their outfitters were saying a long time ago. Many accused me of being anti nonresident etc. That is so far from the truth. I only want Alaska to be known for integrity and honest discussions within the guiding community and if pricing these hunts needs to be restructured to favor "success" over just an expensive backpacking trip..............I have no issue putting my thoughts about this front and center by pricing my hunts the way that I have expressed. I feel that is putting the nonresident sheep hunter and their savings upfront and a huge priority of my business model as a registered guide representing truthful honest Alaskans.

 

[HornPorn]

I know that I have preliminary booked 6-8 hunters from previously guided successful clients (and my one non successful client last year) and have not even discussed pricing with these past clients. These hunts will be stretched out over the next 4 years as I will do my part and only bring 2 hunters max per year.

I appreciate the spirit of what you are trying to do, and you sound like a good guy, but it also sounds like this is all moot. According to what you wrote above, you possibly don't have any hunts available until 2029 (5 years from now!). 5 years ago hunts for dalls in the NWT were $23-25k, and AK hunts were $18-19K. The way things are going, 5 years from now who's to say dall hunts won't be $80K in Canada and $70K in AK, or are you going to only charge a $22K trophy fee 5 years from now for your next 2 clients who give you a $8K deposit for 2029?

 

[mtnbiker208]

Will you take a check for the trophy fee? If not, how will the client pay you? cash; credit card?
thinking like a business owner on this one. When fees are paid, up front, you don't have to worry if the check will bounce or get canceled.

as a 3\4 slammer, holy shit prices have gotten expensive, the desert is no longer the most expensive, but approaching the cheapest.

 

[DBMR]

I appreciate the spirit of what you are trying to do, and you sound like a good guy, but it also sounds like this is all moot. According to what you wrote above, you possibly don't have any hunts available until 2029 (5 years from now!). 5 years ago hunts for dalls in the NWT were $23-25k, and AK hunts were $18-19K. The way things are going, 5 years from now who's to say dall hunts won't be $80K in Canada and $70K in AK, or are you going to only charge a $22K trophy fee 5 years from now for your next 2 clients who give you a $8K deposit for 2029?

My current overall SUCCESFUL hunt price (potentially) is close to what you will pay for most Alaska Dall Sheep hunts on non-federal land concessioned hunts currently, whether you are successful or not on those other outfits. Of course, my prices will go up according to the market price in future years. But i made a post in today's market pricing asking for opinions on a large trophy fee pricing structure.

Where my price structure differs is on the unsuccessful costs are much cheaper. I dont get paid the substantial trophy fee if the client is unsuccessful. Thereby both the client and guide have skin in the game and as of now, that is not happening on any AK or Canadian sheep hunts that I know of.

And you are correct on hunt availability, as I have 6-8 past clients that have showed interest in my future hunts though I have not decided on a price structure at this time or signed any contracts etc with them. I imagine mid to late 2024 I will know better what my long-range calendar availability will look like.

If a hunter where to give a deposit for 5-years down the road and an agreed upon price was set, I would honor that no matter if they were to go up in value. That is the honest and credible thing to do. Just as I would keep that same pricing structure if there was a downturn in the value of these hunts as that happened in the mid 2000's.

 

[DBMR]

Will you take a check for the trophy fee? If not, how will the client pay you? cash; credit card?
thinking like a business owner on this one. When fees are paid, up front, you don't have to worry if the check will bounce or get canceled.

as a 3\4 slammer, holy shit prices have gotten expensive, the desert is no longer the most expensive, but approaching the cheapest.

I honestly have struggled with this and don't have an answer what i would do. Hopefully my lower hunter numbers will allow me to weed out any potential deadbeats that would give me issues on not paying what they owe contractually.

 

[IBen]

take 20k upfront. Tell client to bring 8k cash. If you strike out give him a check for 20k and he gives you the 8k. If you score he give you the 8k…

 

[Aoudaddy]

I greatly appreciate the opinions and the feedback. As with most people I don't necessarily agree with all the opinions but have taken them to point and will think of the positives and negatives and for some of the ideas I never thought of.

I will be at the Wild Sheep Show in Reno in Jan from the 17-21st as I have been attending that show for the last 20years. I will also be at Dallas Safari on the 14th of Jan only. If anyone would like to meet up at either of those two shows, I'll gladly talk with you. I have a lot of knowledge I would like to pass on for the "unsuspecting" nonresident shopping/looking for sheep hunts. This industry at times does not lend itself to the most honest folks out there, with plenty of "rams sold" when outfitters know darn well those rams are not available, crowded conditions when hunts were sold as "pristine resident free/other guides nonexistent experience and so on.

One has to only look at our recently closed GMU 19C for nonresidents. Many (not all) of those outfitters out there selling hunts were guilty of both the above examples. If you have known me or read any of my historical posts, I warned nonresidents this closure was coming no matter what their outfitters were saying a long time ago. Many accused me of being anti nonresident etc. That is so far from the truth. I only want Alaska to be known for integrity and honest discussions within the guiding community and if pricing these hunts needs to be restructured to favor "success" over just an expensive backpacking trip..............I have no issue putting my thoughts about this front and center by pricing my hunts the way that I have expressed. I feel that is putting the nonresident sheep hunter and their savings upfront and a huge priority of my business model as a registered guide representing truthful honest Alaskans.

Ill be at DSC this year, would like to talk to you about sheep hunting and sheep rifles!