Accuracy improvement in ammo - practical experience

[IdahoSwede]

It is very well document that certain guns will shoot certain ammo more accurately. I’m curious though if we isolate just that variable (obviously there is a lot more variables in accuracy), what has been your practical experience in this? Have you seen a gun improve from a 2 MOA to 1 MOA or 1.5 MOA to .5 MOA with solely a different ammo or is it more incremental improvement?

 

[Megalodon]

What is the reason for the question? Part of it will be the barrels "preference" for certain bullets/loads, but I expect a lot of it will be QC of the ammo.

 

[IdahoSwede]

My experience is that barrels are not the unique little snowflakes that people like to make them out to be. Like most things firearms related, people mistakenly and inappropriately extrapolate from small samples and/or misunderstandings. Couple that with inconsistent shooter influence, and opinions start to get pretty wild. A good quality barrel will shoot "match" ammo well in terms of precision - well is obviously subjective to the desired end use.

Here's 9 different factory ammo (180 rounds total) out of the same barrel ranging from factory "match" to bulk ammo to hunting ammo. For each ammo option, four 5-shot groups were shot, and then I aggregated all 20-shots.

That is an incredibly detailed post. Thank you very much

 

[just.mark]

From practical experience I have learned that the cartridge plays a big part of this. Modern cartridges like 6.5cr and 7prc have much tighter tolerances then cartridges from 50 years ago and subsequently I believe result in a smaller overall statistical distribution between factory ammo.

Additonaly my experience in handloading has taught me that the distance to the lands is the number one variable in grouping. My 7mm rem mag shots .60 MOA groups at .015 from lands and 2 MOA groups at .030 from lands using eldms.

 

[The Guide]

The short answer is yes, but it all depends on the barrel. A lower quality factory type barrel on a budget type rifle may shoot 4 MOA with some factory ammo where as it will shoot sub MOA with other factory loads or a tuned handload. Most quality barrels (factory or custom) will shoot sub 1.5 MOA with all loads and have certain loads they will hit that 0.5 MOA or lower group with.

Jay

 

[wind gypsy]

Additonaly my experience in handloading has taught me that the distance to the lands is the number one variable in grouping. My 7mm rem mag shots .60 MOA groups at .015 from lands and 2 MOA groups at .030 from lands using eldms.

Curious what the sample size is on this conclusion? How many rounds in a group and did you repeat it?

 

[wind gypsy]

My experience is some barrels are more finicky and there is more variance between ammo. BUT, if a barrel shoots a couple different types of quality ammo poorly, the chances it is going to shoot something else that I want to shoot consistently well are not worth the time and $ it may take to find that unicorn. Good barrels seem to shoot most everything fairly well.

 

[BCsteve]

Additonaly my experience in handloading has taught me that the distance to the lands is the number one variable in grouping. My 7mm rem mag shots .60 MOA groups at .015 from lands and 2 MOA groups at .030 from lands using eldms.

Personally I have found the opposite. I don't pay much attention to distance to the land. I couldn't tell how close or far my relaods are to the lands.

 

[TaperPin]

It is very well document that certain guns will shoot certain ammo more accurately. I’m curious though if we isolate just that variable (obviously there is a lot more variables in accuracy), what has been your practical experience in this? Have you seen a gun improve from a 2 MOA to 1 MOA or 1.5 MOA to .5 MOA with solely a different ammo or is it more incremental improvement?

In general I’m a firm believer that 9 times out of 10 your gun will never shoot better than it’s worst group. If it shoots a single 3 shot 1-1/2 moa group with one brand of good quality ammo, the odds of it shooting better for the next 4 boxes of the same or different ammo is nil. We are an optimistic group and hold out hope that some magic combination will get tiny groups, but just like an old arthritic dog, not much is going to get him to run like a puppy.

I‘ve sold or traded a number of guns after the first box of ammo and don’t regret it - time was better spent on rifles that shoot good right off the bat.

 

[Sandstrom]

@TK-421, great data. Out of curiosity, what rifles and barrels were used in your testing?
Thanks!
Ryan

 

[Tmac]

Have you seen a gun improve from a 2 MOA to 1 MOA or 1.5 MOA to .5 MOA with solely a different ammo or is it more incremental improvement?

Yes. Getting ready for an elk hunt in 4 weeks, just tried 5 different loads for a Tikka T3X in 270Win. These were 5 shot groups at 100 yards. Shot 150 ABLR’s into .5 MOA. 150 Bergers with two different powders into 1.25 and 1 MOA. 145 ELD-X with two different powders into 1.5 and 1.3 MOA. This same rifle will shoot factory Barnes Vor-tx ammo with 130 TTSX’s to almost .5 MOA and 129 LRX’s into 1.2 MOA for 5 shots.

The 150 ABLR‘s are going on the hunt. Will do some 10 shot groups with the 150 ABLR’s and expect the rifle to stay at or just under 1 MOA. If I really take my time and have a good day, maybe get close to .7 or .8. As long as I can shoot it to about 1.5 MOA at 500 off the bi-pod I’ll be very happy.

All of the following are two 5 shot groups for a 10 shot aggregate, or three 3 shot groups aggregated, or some combo of shots very similar. All at 100 yards unless noted differently.

Two other 270 Win Tikka T3’s perform similarly to the T3X 270 mentioned above with a variety of factory loads, in terms of pretty good shooters. Almost all loads under 1.5 MOA. But their most favored loads end up about 1 MOA. Neither one has ever come close to a .5 MOA group. Neither one has been much over 2 MOA. Good solid consistent hunting rifles accuracy wise.

I have a Rem 700 in 280 Rem with a #5 Brux barrel that shoots nearly everything into .75 - 1.25 MOA. It likes 145 LRX’s the most and gets to .65 MOA with them at 100 regularly. Pretty good and consistent shooter. Was able to hold it to 1.33 MOA at 600 yards with the 145 LRX’s for 8 shots. This gun has not shot anything terribly.

Have a couple unaltered Rem 700’s, 25-06 and 280, that are not nearly as consistent. Favored factory loads 1.25 MOA range, stuff they do not like up to 3 MOA. Then had 2 two older Rem 700’s with their skinny taper Rem barrel, early 90’s stuff iirc, they gave me fits. Tried 8 - 10 different loads, 3-4 MOA, messed with bedding, and finally found one load that shot OK in one of those rifles. The other got the Brux barrel referenced above.

I have a Rem model 7 with the skinny 20” SS factory barrel in 7-08. Surprisingly, to me anyway, may be the most consistent rifle I have. I have put quite a few different flavors of factory ammo through it. Nothing much better than 1.25 MOA or worse than 1.5 MOA. It had its trigger worked, everything else is stock.

While every rifle is different, I tend to agree with the posters above that good barrels shoot most stuff well. My experience with custom barrels is not expansive, just a couple Krieger and Brux barrels. The Tikka’s perform very close to the custom barrels. Lower end factory barrels can be much more erratic. Been my experience anyway.

Anymore, I’ll get 3 different factory types of ammo with bullets I can live with. If my rifle has proven to shoot well already, I nearly always have one or two that make the grade. If it’s hand loaded there are usually 5 options. I no longer mess with finicky rifles. They get put in a corner and later get a new tube or moved on as a donor action.

 

[Marshfly]

Yes. But it’s an older rifle with an older cartridge. 1980s REM 700 270 Win. 3” plus from factory 145 ELDx. 0.75” from Barnes TTSX. Both 10 round groups.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[timelinex]

My accuracy international rifles shoot .5moa with FGMM, <1moa with all quality ammo and probably < 1.5moa with anything else you feed through it.

My savage 308 shoots .75 with reloads that were painstakingly tuned for it, 1moa with FGMM, and very variable with everything else.

So what I have found is that high quality rifles shoot good factory ammo accurately and marginal ammo at marginal accuracy. Decent quality rifles shoot factory ammo at OK accuracy, but you need to reload to get good accuracy out of them.

 

[Macintosh]

I had a 7mm08 tikka that was very finicky. Even after bedding, etc it would shoot federal nosler ballistic tips into 1.5” 10 round groups, but I never found any other ammo out of 7 or 8 I tried that would group under 2.5moa or so. Some were “premium” ammo but some were basic as I was also looking for reasonably priced practice ammo. All the other tikkas I have owned were much more consistent.
The biggest difference I have seen is with 22rimfires. I had one lot of sk+ ammo that grouped exactly the same as midas+, about 1.25moa at 100 yards. The next lot of sk+ was about 3moa on a good day. I had some RWS MATCH ammo that shot about 1.5moa in summer, but about 3moa in winter, so temp obviously can be a factor especially with lubricated 22ammo.

I have no doubt that 1) cheap ammo is less consistent lot to lot and brand to brand and will show greater variation than if you only compare premium-level cartridges, and 2) I have no doubt that the odds of getting a finicky barrel are greater in factory rifles (and some factory rifles in particular) than in a custom or premium aftermarket barrel.