700yd practice, calling wind sucks!

[Q_Sertorius]

Sounds like you need more trigger time



I cant make myself spend that much on 22lr either. And running a handful of blazers out at that range is comical. I do feel that there is a middle ground between blaster packs and the .40/round stuff. One would have to experiment and see what that is though.

I should have said, “At 300 yards…” If you can hit consistently at 300 yards with a .22 LR from field positions (offhand, sitting , or kneeling) you are a better rifleman than me.


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[West2East]

Sitting with a pack and tripod is very steady, so that wouldn't be unthinkable.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Sitting with a pack and tripod is very steady, so that wouldn't be unthinkable.

I consider a tripod to be about as good as a prone, if not quite as good as a bench. But I don’t shoot with a tripod.


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[West2East]

Well I guess I should qualify, one tripod leg is used as a rear support while the fore-end rests on your backpack. It's a quick way to get stable. I always have my tripod out glassing so it's available in that situation. Like I said, I try to only shoot with what I take hunting just so I know what my abilities are.
If I clamped my gun in a vise no doubt it would shoot better than 1.5moa, but I don't take my vice hunting, same with a bench.

 

[Lawnboi]

For reference I haven't sat at a bench in probably 3 years so all of my shooting is done basically with what I would take hunting. I have shot so much 22lr in my life that I'm guessing it would take 150 - 250yds to really get a good transferable skill in reading and holding wind. Like I stated, its probably doable, I would just need some really good ammo to get moa accuracy to actually remove the ammo from the equation. IRRC CCI ammo gives me about a 2-3" group at 100 yds out of my 10/22 and I haven't messed around too much with the bolt gun to see how it does with the CCI ammo

I don’t feel any rimfire really translates to centerfire. I have tried to use it as a trainer but it just dosnt do it for me, I get about as much from a dry fire, which really only is position building.

I do feel a 223 is a viable training option though.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Well I guess I should qualify, one tripod leg is used as a rear support while the fore-end rests on your backpack. It's a quick way to get stable. I always have my tripod out glassing so it's available in that situation. Like I said, I try to only shoot with what I take hunting just so I know what my abilities are.
If I clamped my gun in a vise no doubt it would shoot better than 1.5moa, but I don't take my vice hunting, same with a bench.

The point I am trying to make is that if you want to get good at making wind calls, I think you have to eliminate the other sources of error as much as possible. If you call it a full value wind, but hit somewhere unexpectedly, you want to have a good idea of whether you got the wind call wrong. I don’t think I could do that at 300 yards with a rimfire unless I was shooting from a bench. If you can do that with cheap rimfire ammo from a hunting rifle, then more power to you. The people I know who do 300 yard rimfire use expensive ammo and specialized, very heavy, rifles shooting from the bench.

I do my wind practice prone with a bipod, at 300-500 yards, on 8” steel with a big piece of cardboard behind it. My targets are all over my farm, which is rolling hills in a narrow valley, so I am not always dealing with the same wind speeds or directions. And no range flags or Kestrel. It is a good bit harder than shooting at the 500-yard line at Camp Pendleton, where I learned that due to the thermals rising off the airfield, the third relay generally had a steady full value wind and I could just hold on the target to the right of mine and hit every shot (or maybe I really sucked and got pit love?). I have been using my Mauser .22-250 and CZ 6.5 Grendel for it this summer, but now that I have a Tikka 223 practice rifle, I will use that.


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[hickswr]

S&B FMJ ammo blows at 700 yards. You’ll be pleasantly surprised when some better ammo.

 

[Jordan Smith]

One thing I noticed right off within about 5 shots is that my wind call was waaayyyy off. I actually needed about less than 2moa hold to the right and when there was no wind a little less than 1moa to the left. I don't know how to reconcile this other than recognize maybe my inputs were incorrect.

When shooting over varied terrain, the wind all the way between you and the target is not just consistently doing what you measure with your Kestrel at your shooting position. Think of the way water flows around different land features in a creek (also different at the bottom of the creek versus higher up at the surface), and imagine that happening over the terrain features between you and the target.

In a complex scenario with various terrain features and elevations, it's very easy to mis-call the net wind effect on your bullet, even if you're sitting at your shooting position with a Kestrel. Wind flows faster higher off the ground (again, similar to water in a creek or river), so shooting across a canyon adds that additional variable.

Shots from the video are numbered on the card(if you care to watch) and show a little progression of figuring out what to do with the wind. The strong winds (10mph) I actually only needed 2MOA to be "Close" and "Zero" wind I needed to hold off the left edge of the plate (1MOA) to make impacts(I haven't determined if this is spin drift or just user error/form). Also, by tracking these shots I saw that the original dope sheet was off and I needed about 19.25 to be center elevation, could also go to 19.5. Notice none of the shots were high which tells me I'm not centered on elevation.

It looks to me like your cone of fire, even after you added the 0.25-0.5 MOA after the first 10 shots, could stand to come up another 0.4 MOA, or so, to center your cone.

Any input or help/ commentary would be awesome. Also, if anyone else has tracked like this and is willing to show a whole cut up video I think it's helpful at least for me to diagnose my own sessions.

I agree about getting your spent primer count up with trainer rifles like a .223 and .22 LR. When it comes to .22 LR, shooting at about 300 yards is similar in effect to shooting at 1000 yards with a high-BC CF bullet. I would suggest practicing between 100-250 yards to replicate the wind drifts you're seeing now, with a given wind profile.

In terms of .22 LR ammo, consider some of the match-grade stuff: Eley TenX, Lapua CenterX and Midas, SK Long range and Match, etc. Most of it should still be a fair bit cheaper than high-BC .223 ammo. Find what your rifle likes and get to practicing.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

In a complex scenario with various terrain features and elevations, it's very easy to mis-call the net wind effect on your bullet, even if you're sitting at your shooting position with a Kestrel. Wind flows faster higher off the ground (again, similar to water in a creek or river), so shooting across a canyon add that's additional variable.

This is excellent information that I wish more folks would consider.

When we used to teach long range classes we would have a guy down range with a radio set off smoke canisters at the targets.

This would show the shooters not only what the wind was doing at the target compared to the shooting position, but just how much more it moves once it gets further away from the ground.

When shooting a bullet at 700 yards, in steep terrain, consider what the high point of your bullet could be, not only the trajectory arc of needing to dial 10 feet above the target, but what the terrain looks like during flight. Understanding the bullets high point for the shot can make or break a wind call.

The ONLY way to learn this is to go shoot. Take notes. Rinse and repeat.

 

[West2East]

I have done quite a bit of my shooting in the mountains and have noticed the variable wind speed and direction, it's one of the things I'm working on when shooting which is why I try to be at longer range to see the impacts of what I think a wind is vs what it really is.
@THLR videos have helped me in that area. Still more work needed though.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[West2East]

S&B FMJ ammo blows at 700 yards. You’ll be pleasantly surprised when some better ammo.

I've wondered about this and I think you're right. I can even tell when the gun goes off that it doesn't seem like the loads are very consistent. It's just so cheap! but maybe capping it to like 400 and trying to find a ELDM loading that I can use for longer range. I hate to start loading my own since that just takes time but maybe that's the answer to get it cheaper to shoot longer.
I use 147 factory ammo for my hunting round, maybe the key is to start loading what I need instead of trying to find a "deal" on them and buying enough for hunting season. It just sucks paying $32/box vs $15.50/box for the S&B

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I've wondered about this and I think you're right. I can even tell when the gun goes off that it doesn't seem like the loads are very consistent. It's just so cheap! but maybe capping it to like 400 and trying to find a ELDM loading that I can use for longer range. I hate to start loading my own since that just takes time but maybe that's the answer to get it cheaper to shoot longer.

If you can borrow a Garmin chronograph from someone, that can help you determine your lot of ammunition’s inconsistency.

I like reloading, but it is generally only cheaper if your time isn’t worth anything.


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[West2East]

That was why I mentioned going up on a foggy day. Watch that stuff hauling ass across a canyon and then shoot straight up when it hits the rimrock. Pretty eye opening

also always liked this vid

I watched several of his vids last night, good info. Actually pretty good shooting for the ranges that they are at!

 

[West2East]

If you can borrow a Garmin chronograph from someone, that can help you determine your lot of ammunition’s inconsistency.

I like reloading, but it is generally only cheaper if your time isn’t worth anything.


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I think you'd be surprised how severely I under-value my time! I'm a DIY guy to the core

 

[West2East]

I've been pretty happy running AAC through my 223's. Dunno how consistent this stuff is, but I'd give it a try

View attachment 916626

I'll have to check these out, that's close to what I pay for the S&B, Thanks!

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I'll have to check these out, that's close to what I pay for the S&B, Thanks!

I have 200 AAC 140-grain FMJ 6.5 CM waiting for my Tikka to get back to me. It’s supposed to be here tomorrow. I’m hoping to get out and shoot it Friday afternoon or Saturday morning.

The AAC 6.5 Grendel I used wasn’t very impressive, but the AAC .223 77-grain OTMs averaged at 2692.7 with a respectable standard deviation of 16.1 from my 16.1 AR.


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[hickswr]

I've wondered about this and I think you're right. I can even tell when the gun goes off that it doesn't seem like the loads are very consistent. It's just so cheap! but maybe capping it to like 400 and trying to find a ELDM loading that I can use for longer range. I hate to start loading my own since that just takes time but maybe that's the answer to get it cheaper to shoot longer.
I use 147 factory ammo for my hunting round, maybe the key is to start loading what I need instead of trying to find a "deal" on them and buying enough for hunting season. It just sucks paying $32/box vs $15.50/box for the S&B

You’d be better off only shooting half as much with consistent ammo for long range practice. If you don’t know why you missed, you haven’t learned anything.

This the answer for cheaper (good) ammo-
The 130gr also shoots well! Buy in bulk and save. I’ve never purchased from that retailer, just the first link that popped up. But that is the ammo you want for a cheaper 6.5 training round. (It will also kill critters)

Do not buy FMJ ammo for anything where accuracy is an expectation.

Top 6.5mm Creedmoor 143gr HPBT Ammo by Norma

Explore Norma's 6.5mm Creedmoor 143gr HPBT ammo, precision-engineered for top performance. Reloadable brass cases, 2,723 FPS velocity. Shop now!

ammunationusa.com

 

[West2East]

I have 3 boxes of 140ELDM that I am thinking of seeing how they do just to burn some powder waiting until my hunt. I don't use the 140's for hunting so I might as well get some practice in with them. They may change my mind on higher-BC quality ammo for practice at range.

 

[ddowning]

These threads come up so often it's crazy. The best way to learn to shoot is to do it....a lot. We used to travel and shoot matches all over. We shot thousands of rounds a year, usually a few hundred a week. We shot in all kinds of new areas with new terrain we had never shot in before under time constraints. At best I was a 10th place to 15th place guy at national 2 days and a 1st-10th place guy at regional level matches. When you shoot that much in that many places, you learn what effects the difficulty of making a first round hit. You become faster and also more likely to say "let's get closer."

Even at my best, my first round hit distance on a 12" square in mediocre conditions was between 800 and 1000 yards with a 6mm. The crazy thing is, a second round hit was pretty doable to the transonic range of the bullet. 2nd round hits at 1400 yards were pretty doable with a 115 dtac going 3150fps. First round hits on 12" squares just aren't very easy. When you get in tricky conditions it is even harder. There were times I would question getting a first round hit at 500 yards, even when I was shooting a bunch. Shooting a lot, in different conditions, will allow you to instantly recognize if it is a high probability shot or not.

Guys see the technology that is available for long range shooting. Of course, it is sold as easy in orde to sell product. It is pretty simple, but you still have to practice a ton to develop and maintain the skill. The knowledge is out there, but it is not as simple as buying the gear and going to do it. It sounds like a lot of your friends think the gear will do it for them. Good on you for realizing that is not the case and practicing in order to learn.

 

[West2East]

Guys see the technology that is available for long range shooting. Of course, it is sold as easy in orde to sell product. It is pretty simple, but you still have to practice a ton to develop and maintain the skill. The knowledge is out there, but it is not as simple as buying the gear and going to do it. It sounds like a lot of your friends think the gear will do it for them. Good on you for realizing that is not the case and practicing in order to learn.

It does seem like that. The onset of dials on budget scopes brought the idea that all it took was cranking the dial and shooting. I remember when I first started with a Vortex Viper in probably 2014, I took it to the range, sighted in and shot the gong at 500 and figured I was good. Now all of my shots were from 10yds - 300yds so I never did any "damage" but it wasn't until probably 2020 that I started looking at the long range ability of my system and then me. Because I realized if I wanted to hit that 12" plate the first shot, I needed a lot of work, and a lot more shooting.
But that part is missed by a lot. Also, I don't know if it also has to do with an ethic of pulling the trigger and expecting to kill. Sometimes, it seems like there is the feeling among some that if I hit the animal anywhere with my 300WM, it will die. And it doesn't always happen that way.