6UM alternative

[Axlrod]

I've followed a few of your posts. Access to the right reamer certainly makes the process more complex than just click and buy. It's beginning to feel like I'm going to have to buy a reamer. You must be running a shorter barrel as well. I'd think your velocity would be higher on N570, though perhaps you're not stepping on it either. I'd be interested to your your charge weight vs where you hit pressure signs.

It's a 20" Bartlein with a Scythe-Ti. I corrected my earlier post, it's ave velo is 3292 w/ 69.5 gr. N570. Before I turned necks this load was prob. max. I can go a bit more on N570, and can get more velo out of R26 too. It shoots good here so i'm good with it. I will probably have UM get me a different reamer for my next one, but it doesn't take much time to turn necks. And you only do it once.

 

[RockCreekGuy]

Just to add some content to the thread I ran some QL #s. Berger publishes good information for bullet dimensions and I put the boat tail ogive at the neck shoulder junction to determine the cartridge length below. Max case capacity was adjusted to ADG's published data. Charge weight was manually run up to reach Maximum chamber pressure. Barrel length was set to 20" as everyone seems to be running these short but I added data above the screenshots for a 26" barrel as well. I realize running to max at a long length forces you into pressure during seating depth testing but it's apples to apples between a few cases at least.


N570 @ 26" runs 3,327fps 43fps/inch ave



Retumbo @ 26" runs 3,254fps 38fps/inch ave



N570 @ 26" runs 3,371fps 44.8fps/in ave



Retumbo @ 26" runs 3,304fps 39.6fps/in ave



N565 @ 26" runs 3,240fps 37fps/in ave N570 case is full long before pressure



IMR 7828 @ 26" runs 3,254fps 36.5fps/in ave

 

[RockCreekGuy]

It's a 20" Bartlein with a Scythe-Ti. I corrected my earlier post, it's ave velo is 3292 w/ 69.5 gr. N570. Before I turned necks this load was prob. max. I can go a bit more on N570, and can get more velo out of R26 too. It shoots good here so i'm good with it. I will probably have UM get me a different reamer for my next one, but it doesn't take much time to turn necks. And you only do it once.

My version of QL doesn't have the 7PRC, so I grabbed the 7RM SAAMI, adjusted case length to match the 7PRC, gave it a COAL to put the boat tail ogive at the shoulder neck junction, adjusted case capacity to ADG's published case volume and ran N570 up to pressure of 69.54gr on a 20" barrel. I'm still learning how to use it. I've long wanted to work with someone well acquainted with QL as there must be factors for powder burn rates that can be trued to make this match our measured velocities. I'm getting 3,146fps out of my 300 RUM on 94.4gr N570 and this is well over 130fps what QL says I should be getting. I've seen lots of posts out there of people running the 6prc with great success but it sure seems like the case fills faster than pressure can be reached with our popular magnum powders. I'm still tempted to want to go with a larger case.

This combo @ 26" runs 3,383fps 45fps/in ave

 

[GoatPackr]

@RockCreekGuy

With the modified case to resemble the 7 PRC what did QL say for 26" 7 twist with N570? That's what I run.
Curious how close it would be.
Oh 90HHT for the bullet if it list those.
I have run a few 108 ELM also.
How picky would groove caliber be with QL settings. A quick check and Ace list a .236 and .237 and I see you are at .243.

 

[RockCreekGuy]

@RockCreekGuy

With the modified case to resemble the 7 PRC what did QL say for 26" 7 twist with N570? That's what I run.
Curious how close it would be.
Oh 90HHT for the bullet if it list those.
I have run a few 108 ELM also.
How picky would groove caliber be with QL settings. A quick check and Ace list a .236 and .237 and I see you are at .243.

To my knowledge QL doesn't account for rifling twist. Otherwise that exact N570 data is in my post above... 3,383 fps @ 26".

 

[khuber84]

@RockCreekGuy

With the modified case to resemble the 7 PRC what did QL say for 26" 7 twist with N570? That's what I run.
Curious how close it would be.
Oh 90HHT for the bullet if it list those.
I have run a few 108 ELM also.
How picky would groove caliber be with QL settings. A quick check and Ace list a .236 and .237 and I see you are at .243.

243 is groove depth, 237 and 236 are bore diameters. Always go 237.

 

[Axlrod]

My version of QL doesn't have the 7PRC, so I grabbed the 7RM SAAMI, adjusted case length to match the 7PRC, gave it a COAL to put the boat tail ogive at the shoulder neck junction, adjusted case capacity to ADG's published case volume and ran N570 up to pressure of 69.54gr on a 20" barrel. I'm still learning how to use it. I've long wanted to work with someone well acquainted with QL as there must be factors for powder burn rates that can be trued to make this match our measured velocities. I'm getting 3,146fps out of my 300 RUM on 94.4gr N570 and this is well over 130fps what QL says I should be getting. I've seen lots of posts out there of people running the 6prc with great success but it sure seems like the case fills faster than pressure can be reached with our popular magnum powders. I'm still tempted to want to go with a larger case.

This combo @ 26" runs 3,383fps 45fps/in ave
View attachment 810666

When I was looking for starting loads for various powders in QL, I used the 6mm Arnold w/ 75 gr capacity and a 20" barrel. 69.5 Gr N570 is 3280 fps. So the data is real close.

 

[GoatPackr]

Otherwise that exact N570 data is in my post above... 3,383 fps @ 26".

Wow!! So about 45 fps more per inch of barrel added? That's a little better than average. I think people usually figure 25-35 fps per inch.

That's close to what I was getting with a 108 ELDm. Similar powder charge. Think I still had more room with those.
I've got 71 grn in under the 90HHT and it's full not compressed. I could definitely vibrate and get more in but it's shooting good at 3560 fps.

 

[GoatPackr]

The neck clearance was tight on fired Adg brass, so I turned the necks.

How did you figure necks were tight? What made you decide to turn?
Mine was probably made with the same reamer as yours and I'm running ADG

 

[Axlrod]

How did you figure necks were tight? What made you decide to turn?
Mine was probably made with the same reamer as yours and I'm running ADG

Reamer print shows .279" neck, my fired brass were .279". Couldn't fit a bullet in a fired case. Not enough neck clearance. Now my fired cases are .277"

 

[GoatPackr]

Reamer print shows .279" neck, my fired brass were .279". Couldn't fit a bullet in a fired case. Not enough neck clearance. Now my fired cases are .277"

I just ordered a tubing mic. I'm going to measure my brass. I've been really curious how consistent the necks are after forming from 7mm. When at pressure I was getting flyers. It got much better after getting a better neck tension but it can't hurt to check them and true them up if needed. Also have the same size brass after shooting like you did.

 

[Axlrod]

I just ordered a tubing mic. I'm going to measure my brass. I've been really curious how consistent the necks are after forming from 7mm. When at pressure I was getting flyers. It got much better after getting a better neck tension but it can't hurt to check them and true them up if needed. Also have the same size brass after shooting like you did.

I think the biggest thing is enough clearance for bullet release. If you can easily put a bullet in a fired case you should be good. If you don't have enough clearance you probably will see pressure sooner. And experience erratic groups.

I have done a lot of testing on neck turning with other guns and cartridges. The only time there has been a measurable difference is when there wasn't enough clearance. So turning necks, when not needed for clearance, didn't show up on the target.

I did test different amounts of clearance on a heavy target gun in 284 Win. And there was no change on targets, after .002" clearance. (more didn't hurt, but was no better)

Also I tried different neck tension, and this one (6-7PRC) shot the best at .005".

If you don't have a neck turner PM me. I can turn them for you and return them in a day or so.

 

[GoatPackr]

I think the biggest thing is enough clearance for bullet release. If you can easily put a bullet in a fired case you should be good. If you don't have enough clearance you probably will see pressure sooner. And experience erratic groups.

I have done a lot of testing on neck turning with other guns and cartridges. The only time there has been a measurable difference is when there wasn't enough clearance. So turning necks, when not needed for clearance, didn't show up on the target.

I did test different amounts of clearance on a heavy target gun in 284 Win. And there was no change on targets, after .002" clearance. (more didn't hurt, but was no better)

Also I tried different neck tension, and this one (6-7PRC) shot the best at .005".

If you don't have a neck turner PM me. I can turn them for you and return them in a day or so.

I really appreciate the offer. I've got a brand new one sitting on my shelf that I've never used.
The reason I perked up with you turning necks is because I can't slide a bullet into a fired case. I'm going to look at it a little closer and check with the tube mic.
I should have it in the mail late next week.

 

[Grizzle]

How would a 6 284 compare to the 30° 6 saum/um ? Seems like there should be a middle ground between the 6 creed and 6 um. 6x55ai? 6-284? 6-06? 6 sst? Or is the 6 prc the answer? Not that it matters when my skills don't exceed a 6 cm but fun to think about

 

[Wrench]

I have a 6-284 reamer and dies here, but the xc is working so well for me I'm not sure I can handle 1500 less rounds before it cooks so I can gain 100fps.

The x284 will work with 300win mags but not 06 based mags.

 

[wyosam]

I have a 6-284 reamer and dies here, but the xc is working so well for me I'm not sure I can handle 1500 less rounds before it cooks so I can gain 100fps.

The x284 will work with 300win mags but not 06 based mags.

I use standard mags for both 6.5-284 and 338-284 and both feed like butter.


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[Wrench]

My aics mags will hold a x284 too low for the bolt to grab. A 300win works well.

 

[Axlrod]

How would a 6 284 compare to the 30° 6 saum/um ? Seems like there should be a middle ground between the 6 creed and 6 um. 6x55ai? 6-284? 6-06? 6 sst? Or is the 6 prc the answer? Not that it matters when my skills don't exceed a 6 cm but fun to think about

You can look on Nosler load data online. They have case capacity for each cartridge. Probably not real accurate, but good enough for comparing the parent cases.
Anyway h2o cap:
6Creed- 50 gr
284- 60 gr
7saum- 65 gr
6.5 Prc- 70 gr
7 Prc- 75 gr

 

[wyosam]

My aics mags will hold a x284 too low for the bolt to grab. A 300win works well.

View attachment 811551

Ah, yeah. Tikka mags seem to be a lot more forgiving. Feed everything well, as long as you don’t need them over 3.330 or wherever they max out.


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[B23]

How would a 6 284 compare to the 30° 6 saum/um ? Seems like there should be a middle ground between the 6 creed and 6 um. 6x55ai? 6-284? 6-06? 6 sst? Or is the 6 prc the answer? Not that it matters when my skills don't exceed a 6 cm but fun to think about

The 6-284, 6-6.5 PRC, 6-06, 240 Wby all have pretty much the same case capacity right around 66-67gr H2O depending on brand of brass and if you measure it new unfired or after its been fired. The 6-06AI has a little more then those others and is real close to the same as a 6 RSAUM they hold about 71-72gr H2O. The 6UM and 6-6.8 Western are near twins at about 75gr H2O then the 6 WSM has a little more boiler room at 78-79gr H2O.

The SAUM, UM, WSM, and Western will all need a mag bolt face while those others use a standard bolt face size. Most of them will work in a short or Tikka size action but except the 240 Wby or anything based off the 06 case, those two need a long action.

Generally, more case capacity means more velocity but once you get to a certain point of overbore, unless you plan to run exceptionally long barrels, there is a point where you start seeing little increase in velocity for the amount of powder being used.

IMO, the 243Win/6 CM size cases which is right around 51-53gr H2O is kind of the "easy button". They do everything pretty well, are easy to load for, and have pretty decent throat/barrel life. If you want more velocity then either of those the 6-284 and 6-6.5 PRC are also pretty easy peasy. That's not to say that any of the others are difficult per say but like most things it's all about trade offs.

With ADG making quality brass for the 6.8 Western I can see that becoming a very popular case to build 6mm, .257 and .264 wildcats off of.