6CM clickers

[khuber84]

Get the RCBS matchmaster 6cm sizing die and appropriate bushing. This die sizes about as tight at the base as any I've tried, and I've tried a lot. It sized the base 0.002 smaller than my redding. Got rid of clickers that I was getting in 65cm hotrodding with rl26.

 

[solarshooter]

I'll do this is if I run into issues reloading the new brass.

 

[solarshooter]

I finally got done moving and unpacking and was able to load up a test with the new ADG brass. I loaded a sweep with H4350, 2ea from 38.0gr to 43.0gr in 0.5gr increments. I also loaded a sweep with H4831SC, 2ea from 41.0gr to 45.5gr in 0.5gr increments. Side note for those who are interested, 44.5gr and up were compressed loads, 45.5gr was full and beginning to come up the neck. And this is all with a Berger 108 EH seated at 2.800" COAL and CCI 200s.

First off, no more clickers or stiff bolt lift. New brass cured it. So that's the main problem solved, thanks @762 ULTRAMAGA for that brass.

Second, here is a plot of MV vs powder charge. The grey dots are the original sweep I did with H4350 and the old brass, which were the first 30 shots on the barrel. Blue was today's H4350 sweep, and orange was today's H4831SC sweep, shots 66-103.



The barrel break-in/speed-up is very apparent when you look at the two H4350 sweeps. Almost 100fps increase on average for the same powder charge after 60-100rds down the barrel. On the original H4350 sweep, I hit pressure signs at 43.0gr and 2930fps. On today's H4350 sweep, I hit pressure signs at 42.0gr and 2950fps (I did not bother shooting 42.5gr or 43.0gr). On today's H4831SC sweep, I got very faint and inconsistent ejector marks at 45.0gr and 45.5gr, at 2874fps and 2956fps respectively.

So to distill this all down and answer some of the questions/theories raised in this thread:

• Once fired brass in a different chamber was the source of the clickers and stiff bolt lift. The new brass base measured 0.469" vs the once fired at 0.470-0.471".
• The barrel has sped up almost 100fps in 100rds, but I do not think my load of 43.0gr was hot enough to cause the clickers or stiff lift. See above comment. I plan to use 40.0gr for the next 100 rds or so, until the barrel is done speeding up, and then I may test again to see where the ceiling is for both powders.
• H4350 and H4831SC are essentially identical velocity wise in this application. I hit pressure at nearly the same velocity with both powders (~2900fps). H4831SC may be slightly less pressure, but for all intents and purposes they are identical.

 

[khuber84]

I finally got done moving and unpacking and was able to load up a test with the new ADG brass. I loaded a sweep with H4350, 2ea from 38.0gr to 43.0gr in 0.5gr increments. I also loaded a sweep with H4831SC, 2ea from 41.0gr to 45.5gr in 0.5gr increments. Side note for those who are interested, 44.5gr and up were compressed loads, 45.5gr was full and beginning to come up the neck. And this is all with a Berger 108 EH seated at 2.800" COAL and CCI 200s.

First off, no more clickers or stiff bolt lift. New brass cured it. So that's the main problem solved, thanks @762 ULTRAMAGA for that brass.

Second, here is a plot of MV vs powder charge. The grey dots are the original sweep I did with H4350 and the old brass, which were the first 30 shots on the barrel. Blue was today's H4350 sweep, and orange was today's H4831SC sweep, shots 66-103.

View attachment 721450

The barrel break-in/speed-up is very apparent when you look at the two H4350 sweeps. Almost 100fps increase on average for the same powder charge after 60-100rds down the barrel. On the original H4350 sweep, I hit pressure signs at 43.0gr and 2930fps. On today's H4350 sweep, I hit pressure signs at 42.0gr and 2950fps (I did not bother shooting 42.5gr or 43.0gr). On today's H4831SC sweep, I got very faint and inconsistent ejector marks at 45.0gr and 45.5gr, at 2874fps and 2956fps respectively.

So to distill this all down and answer some of the questions/theories raised in this thread:

• Once fired brass in a different chamber was the source of the clickers and stiff bolt lift. The new brass base measured 0.469" vs the once fired at 0.470-0.471".
• The barrel has sped up almost 100fps in 100rds, but I do not think my load of 43.0gr was hot enough to cause the clickers or stiff lift. See above comment. I plan to use 40.0gr for the next 100 rds or so, until the barrel is done speeding up, and then I may test again to see where the ceiling is for both powders.
• H4350 and H4831SC are essentially identical velocity wise in this application. I hit pressure at nearly the same velocity with both powders (~2900fps). H4831SC may be slightly less pressure, but for all intents and purposes they are identical.

The truth will be told once you size the once fired adg brass and shoot it again with an upper pressure load. That's when clickers will appear. Clickers should never be apparent on virgin brass. It's a sizing issue usually, but sometimes caused by a tight chamber.

 

[solarshooter]

The truth will be told once you size the once fired adg brass and shoot it again with an upper pressure load. That's when clickers will appear. Clickers should never be apparent on virgin brass. It's a sizing issue usually, but sometimes caused by a tight chamber.

Ah shoot, just when I got my hopes up! Yes if I run into issues resizing, I will likely have UM open up the chamber. I don't want to be forced to use small base dies and baby my brass.

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

I finally got done moving and unpacking and was able to load up a test with the new ADG brass. I loaded a sweep with H4350, 2ea from 38.0gr to 43.0gr in 0.5gr increments. I also loaded a sweep with H4831SC, 2ea from 41.0gr to 45.5gr in 0.5gr increments. Side note for those who are interested, 44.5gr and up were compressed loads, 45.5gr was full and beginning to come up the neck. And this is all with a Berger 108 EH seated at 2.800" COAL and CCI 200s.

First off, no more clickers or stiff bolt lift. New brass cured it. So that's the main problem solved, thanks @762 ULTRAMAGA for that brass.

Second, here is a plot of MV vs powder charge. The grey dots are the original sweep I did with H4350 and the old brass, which were the first 30 shots on the barrel. Blue was today's H4350 sweep, and orange was today's H4831SC sweep, shots 66-103.

View attachment 721450

The barrel break-in/speed-up is very apparent when you look at the two H4350 sweeps. Almost 100fps increase on average for the same powder charge after 60-100rds down the barrel. On the original H4350 sweep, I hit pressure signs at 43.0gr and 2930fps. On today's H4350 sweep, I hit pressure signs at 42.0gr and 2950fps (I did not bother shooting 42.5gr or 43.0gr). On today's H4831SC sweep, I got very faint and inconsistent ejector marks at 45.0gr and 45.5gr, at 2874fps and 2956fps respectively.

So to distill this all down and answer some of the questions/theories raised in this thread:

• Once fired brass in a different chamber was the source of the clickers and stiff bolt lift. The new brass base measured 0.469" vs the once fired at 0.470-0.471".
• The barrel has sped up almost 100fps in 100rds, but I do not think my load of 43.0gr was hot enough to cause the clickers or stiff lift. See above comment. I plan to use 40.0gr for the next 100 rds or so, until the barrel is done speeding up, and then I may test again to see where the ceiling is for both powders.
• H4350 and H4831SC are essentially identical velocity wise in this application. I hit pressure at nearly the same velocity with both powders (~2900fps). H4831SC may be slightly less pressure, but for all intents and purposes they are identical.

Glad the brass is working out, H4350 is solid but based on what I've seen in my 6GT match rifle N160 should be awesome in the creed.
Also don't get wrapped up too much with velocity, guys chasing speed burn their barrels out in 1200 rounds. I shot a match with a guy last month who has 2k rounds through his 6 creed sending 115s around 2900, his groups still cloverleaf.

 

[Jason Snyder]

IMO you can’t do a meaningful pressure test on brand new brass. I find after a firing or two I’ll hit pressure about a grain earlier.

 

[solarshooter]

IMO you can’t do a meaningful pressure test on brand new brass. I find after a firing or two I’ll hit pressure about a grain earlier.

Do you think this is due to brass changing or barrel speed up? I would think resized brass has a touch more volume than virgin.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Do you think this is due to brass changing or barrel speed up? I would think resized brass has a touch more volume than virgin.

From what I’ve read, and it makes sense, is after a firing or two the brass is pretty much fire formed to fit tight to the chamber and there is no give to it like with virgin brass. I’ve seen this with several different rifles or markedly different cartridges. From what I’ve experienced it has no relation to how many rounds re down the tube.

 

[wind gypsy]

Ah shoot, just when I got my hopes up! Yes if I run into issues resizing, I will likely have UM open up the chamber. I don't want to be forced to use small base dies and baby my brass.

Unless your chamber is actually too tight, it seems like you'd just be asking a gunsmith to make a sloppy chamber because you insist on loading to excessive pressures.

 

[solarshooter]

Unless your chamber is actually too tight, it seems like you'd just be asking a gunsmith to make a sloppy chamber because you insist on loading to excessive pressures.

The chamber is literally at SAAMI minimum. Maybe 0.001" over min. What I'm saying is that if I have trouble with the resized cases again, I can either go small base dies or get the chamber opened up a hair. I'd rather do the second, since it will mean I don't have to be so picky on ammo/brass for the life of the barrel.

And I still maintain that nothing about these loads is excessive. I don't think that 1-5% difference in charge weight (from say 38gr to 40gr) is somehow having a drastically different effect on the brass. And I have had success with loads like this and much hotter than this in dozens of guns over thousands of rounds. I do not think pressure was or is the culprit here.

 

[khuber84]

@solarshooter your brass that has clickers, what does the base measure with a micrometer? Caliper won't do here. If it's 4708-471 that'll give clickers in most any chamber. A sized case should freely drop into the chamber, and freely fall out. If your getting clickers and fired case bases are 4705 or smaller(you prob have a tight chamber), measure the sized base, if it's not 470 or smaller then you likely have a sloppy die. I had a redding 65cm competition FL bushing die that sized virtually nothing at the base. By firing 3-4 I was getting clickers, sized cases had to be pushed into the chamber, as the web area was hanging up.

 

[solarshooter]

@solarshooter your brass that has clickers, what does the base measure with a micrometer? Caliper won't do here. If it's 4708-471 that'll give clickers in most any chamber. A sized case should freely drop into the chamber, and freely fall out. If your getting clickers and fired case bases are 4705 or smaller(you prob have a tight chamber), measure the sized base, if it's not 470 or smaller then you likely have a sloppy die. I had a redding 65cm competition FL bushing die that sized virtually nothing at the base. By firing 3-4 I was getting clickers, sized cases had to be pushed into the chamber, as the web area was hanging up.

I don't have a mic, caliper measurements I've taken so far are posted earlier in the thread. Yes, jury still out on whether these fresh cases when resized will cause clickers or not. It will probably be a while before I find out, since I want to shoot through all 150 cases before I resize.

 

[solarshooter]

I looked up the skirt of my resizing die last night and saw this. Very rough bands of scoring near the base of the die - kind of looks like chips got caught in the reamer during machining. This die has only been used to resize ~200pcs of brass and felt rough from the beginning. I think I noticed this at one point but kind of dismissed it. After grabbing this photo I looked at a few other Redding resizers I have around and none of them have any scoring like this - they are nearly all mirror smooth in there. Not sure if this could explain part of the issue but I've reached out to Redding to see if they will replace it.

 

[khuber84]

I looked up the skirt of my resizing die last night and saw this. Very rough bands of scoring near the base of the die - kind of looks like chips got caught in the reamer during machining. This die has only been used to resize ~200pcs of brass and felt rough from the beginning. I think I noticed this at one point but kind of dismissed it. After grabbing this photo I looked at a few other Redding resizers I have around and none of them have any scoring like this - they are nearly all mirror smooth in there. Not sure if this could explain part of the issue but I've reached out to Redding to see if they will replace it.
View attachment 724247

That die def may have had some scoring during reaming. That steel is typically hard as F too, no polishing that out. My redding 65cm typeS die sizes the lower half the case very little. It's the reason my 25cm had clickers on 3rd firing. It just sitting on the shelf as I'd feel guilty selling that pos to another reloader.

 

[wind gypsy]

oof. I've heard of pathetic finish on some redding dies but never seen one like that! a $20 lee die would put that to shame.

 

[solarshooter]

Yeah I have had universally good experiences with Redding dies and use them on nearly everything. So do many people I know. This is way out of the norm, hopefully they stand behind it and replace it.

 

[solarshooter]

Following up on this. I did get a new die from Redding and opted for a small base die this time. Virgin ADG brass measured 0.469 before firing, after resizing its back down to 0.4695 at the base. The die is touching the brass much further down on the case and the surface finish is mirror like as I'm used to with Redding. After resizing and shooting there are no clickers.

Another data point is that a friend got a 6CM and is using the same Gunwerks brass I was using, resized with the old die, and didn't have any clicker issues. So my best explanation for the issues I originally had is that I have a tight chamber, and using once fired brass from a different gun with a looser chamber, in concert with a potentially subpar die that wasn't adequately resizing the base of the case. Recording here for posterity if anyone else ever has this issue and digs up this thread.