6CM clickers

[BBob]

Random question as I don't know much about gunsmithing/chambering: can a freebore reamer be used through the action without removing the barrel? Curious if extending freebore is an involved activity or simple.

Depends on the throating reamer used. If using a PTG Uni-Throater (it has an integrated adjustable stop) then yes I’d consider doing it through the action. I have delrin bushing/guides made up to help center it in the action. If using a traditional throater I’d want to do it in the lathe.

without dialing in the barrel to be concentric to the bore

The PTG Uni-Throater has removable pilot bushing that can be sized to fit the bore. They do fine and stay concentric when just moving the throat forward. They cut extremely easy. That said I’d still prefer to do it in the lathe.

 

[Carl Ross]

The PTG Uni-Throater has removable pilot bushing that can be sized to fit the bore. They do fine and stay concentric when just moving the throat forward. They cut extremely easy. That said I’d still prefer to do it in the lathe.

Copy that, good to know about new tools/methods.

 

[ID_Matt]

2930fps avg over 3 shots. The full pressure/MV test results look like this, 3 shots at each charge:

Charge weight (gr)	Avg MV (fps)
40.0	2715
40.5	2741
41.0	2774
41.5	2823
42.0	2858
42.5	2905
43.0	2932
43.5	3008
44.0	3038

I tested my 18" benchmark barrel 6 creed last night. 41.5 @ 2850 with alpha brass was definite max - heavy bolt lift and some brass flow. I will back off to 40.0-40.5 and shoot until the barrel is broken in/sped up.

 

[solarshooter]

I tested my 18" benchmark barrel 6 creed last night. 41.5 @ 2850 with alpha brass was definite max - heavy bolt lift and some brass flow. I will back off to 40.0-40.5 and shoot until the barrel is broken in/sped up.

Pretty similar, what bullet/powder/primer?

 

[ID_Matt]

Pretty similar, what bullet/powder/primer?

Oops. Hornady 108 eldm / H4350 / CCI200 LRP

 

[Lawnboi]

In alpha brass on my last barrel I’m achieving book max velocity out of 39.5 grains of h4350. Fwiw.

H4350 is a bit fast for the 6 creed I feel, but works. Kind of like varget in the 6.5.

 

[solarshooter]

Yeah that's kind of the impression I'm getting. I may try H4831SC once I get this thing broken in and resolve the clicker issue.

 

[wind gypsy]

Yeah that's kind of the impression I'm getting. I may try H4831SC once I get this thing broken in and resolve the clicker issue.

Why would H4831 be any better? I wouldn't expect it to get any more velocity before hitting pressure than H4350 does. Most load data sources show it getting less velocity.

 

[BBob]

With the talk of overpressure IMO:
A slight overpressure where you wreck brass in say 1-3 firings (loose primer pocket, ejector marks, etc...) would not be the reason for clickers. Now mby if you were on the ragged edge of brass, chamber, die fit mby but if you have proper brass, chamber die fit you should not have clickers even with a load hot enough to quickly kill your brass.

 

[wind gypsy]

With the talk of overpressure IMO:
A slight overpressure where you wreck brass in say 1-3 firings (loose primer pocket, ejector marks, etc...) would not be the reason for clickers. Now mby if you were on the ragged edge of brass, chamber, die fit mby but if you have proper brass, chamber die fit you should not have clickers even with a load hot enough to quickly kill your brass.

Are we differentiating between clickers and just sticky bolt lift?

 

[Lawnboi]

Yeah that's kind of the impression I'm getting. I may try H4831SC once I get this thing broken in and resolve the clicker issue.

Your clickers are probably from the brass fire in another chamber.

To break it down. Each chamber may very slightly in diameter on the body. Even though your full length sizing, every time you work brass there is spring back. The reason this works for brass fired in your gun is that even with that spring back, it’s still smaller than your chamber. The brass you have that was fired in another chamber is likely a bit large in the body, large enough that you can’t size it enough in the body which will likely always cause clickers. This is just exacerbated by more pressure.

Just ditch the brass that was fired in another chamber. 6 creed is a barrel eater, no need to burn up barrel life playing with components that are not working.

 

[solarshooter]

Your clickers are probably from the brass fire in another chamber.

To break it down. Each chamber may very slightly in diameter on the body. Even though your full length sizing, every time you work brass there is spring back. The reason this works for brass fired in your gun is that even with that spring back, it’s still smaller than your chamber. The brass you have that was fired in another chamber is likely a bit large in the body, large enough that you can’t size it enough in the body which will likely always cause clickers. This is just exacerbated by more pressure.

Just ditch the brass that was fired in another chamber. 6 creed is a barrel eater, no need to burn up barrel life playing with components that are not working.

Yep, I have new brass in hand, will be testing shortly.

Why would H4831 be any better? I wouldn't expect it to get any more velocity before hitting pressure than H4350 does. Most load data sources show it getting less velocity.

H4831SC is slower burning than H4350. My logic is that if I'm hitting max pressure with a lot of room left in the case, switching to a slower powder should allow me to put more powder in before hitting that same peak pressure. More powder = more energy = more velocity.

 

[Harvey_NW]

H4831SC is slower burning than H4350. My logic is that if I'm hitting max pressure with a lot of room left in the case, switching to a slower powder should allow me to put more powder in before hitting that same peak pressure. More powder = more energy = more velocity.

Something interesting I've noticed is how powder column can effect the different powders. I had a 280AI I was pushing 162's at 2850 with H4831SC and it shot about 1 MOA for 10, had it rechambered in 284 Win and could put almost as much powder in and got very close in velocity but groups went to hell. Switched to H4350 and am getting 2870 with 4gr less powder and it went back to 1 MOA. N565 was almost 100fps slower than H4350 also. Interested to see your results.

 

[Lawnboi]

Some of the slower burning seem to be a little less sensitive to that odd hot round. I don’t have any science to back anything up though.

 

[solarshooter]

Something interesting I've noticed is how powder column can effect the different powders. I had a 280AI I was pushing 162's at 2850 with H4831SC and it shot about 1 MOA for 10, had it rechambered in 284 Win and could put almost as much powder in and got very close in velocity but groups went to hell. Switched to H4350 and am getting 2870 with 4gr less powder and it went back to 1 MOA. N565 was almost 100fps slower than H4350 also. Interested to see your results.

Until someone comes up with the Unifying Theory of Accuracy, I don't see any way to explain what you observed here! Other than small sample testing issues... I don't really understand any of the governing principles of powder columns, other than maybe you get a larger "burning surface" on a short fat case of the same capacity as a long skinny one. But either way, the rule I stated above has generally held true in my experience, that is that powder burn rate is "optimal" when the case is full or near full just before reaching max pressure.

 

[BBob]

Are we differentiating between clickers and just sticky bolt lift?

Picking nits but subtle differences so yes I’d differentiate between a sticky bolt as opposed to a “clicker”. Clickers are just plain stuck until you force them loose with the primary cam hence the “click”.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Until someone comes up with the Unifying Theory of Accuracy, I don't see any way to explain what you observed here! Other than small sample testing issues... I don't really understand any of the governing principles of powder columns, other than maybe you get a larger "burning surface" on a short fat case of the same capacity as a long skinny one. But either way, the rule I stated above has generally held true in my experience, that is that powder burn rate is "optimal" when the case is full or near full just before reaching max pressure.

I guess it depends on how you define "optimal". I define it as low SD, good velocity, good group. So in my testing optimal was not the powder that filled the case.

 

[solarshooter]

I was saying "optimal" in terms of max velocity because in my view of the world, if I'm leaving 10-20% (by charge weight) of empty space in the case, I chose either the wrong powder or the wrong case. Agreed that you would ideally satisfy all criteria. However, I am firmly of the opinion that small changes in powder do not impact group size, and that MV SD and ES are a result of component quality and reloading practices (consistency in brass, powder charge, bullet weight, seating depth, etc) ALONE. There is nothing special about one powder charge vs another in terms of MV stats. If you want proof, look into all the tests that have been done to disprove the infamous Satterlee load dev method.

Looking at your screenshots, you are comparing a difference in SD of 2fps and ES of 1fps with 7 shots and 10 shots. This is not enough data to discern a meaningful difference between those two values. To assess this more rigorously, run a T test on the two data sets and see what the result is. Same goes for 2 10 shot groups to compare accuracy. So once again, I think you are more likely falling victim to small sample size testing than you are seeing a real difference between these loads.

I also have a .284 Win and tested both of these powders with all other variables held constant. H4831SC yielded higher velocities before hitting max pressure, and they both grouped the same, when subjected to thorough testing.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I was saying "optimal" in terms of max velocity because in my view of the world, if I'm leaving 10-20% (by charge weight) of empty space in the case, I chose either the wrong powder or the wrong case. Agreed that you would ideally satisfy all criteria. However, I am firmly of the opinion that small changes in powder do not impact group size, and that MV SD and ES are a result of component quality and reloading practices (consistency in brass, powder charge, bullet weight, seating depth, etc) ALONE. There is nothing special about one powder charge vs another in terms of MV stats. If you want proof, look into all the tests that have been done to disprove the infamous Satterlee load dev method.

Agreed. I'm just saying it doesn't always work out that way, and I thought it was interesting how powder column seemed to impact that in my experience.

Looking at your screenshots, you are comparing a difference in SD of 2fps and ES of 1fps with 7 shots and 10 shots. This is not enough data to discern a meaningful difference between those two values. To assess this more rigorously, run a T test on the two data sets and see what the result is. Same goes for 2 10 shot groups to compare accuracy. So once again, I think you are more likely falling victim to small sample size testing than you are seeing a real difference between these loads.

I stopped at 7 shots with H4831SC because by shot 7 the group was 2". Not gonna work. 10 shots and a round group has enough value to it for me. I'm not concerned with chasing unicorns, the SD is 10 on a decent sample, that's plenty good for me.

I also have a .284 Win and tested both of these powders with all other variables held constant. H4831SC yielded higher velocities before hitting max pressure, and they both grouped the same, when subjected to thorough testing.

Interesting. Maybe your barrel just liked the projectile you were using. In my case both of these tests were at 1.5 gr below ejector marks and the start of bolt lift. I'm not arguing your results, I'm just posting mine.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Yeah that's kind of the impression I'm getting. I may try H4831SC once I get this thing broken in and resolve the clicker issue.

Forgot to mention, I never did any in depth temp sensitivity testing because I was pretty green at the time, but IMR4831 did provide really good groups and velocity out of my 6 Creed with 105 VLD.