6.5 for elk

[Ryan Avery]

Sounds like some solid shooting that day! Of course every shot on every elk is different, but I wouldn’t count on gut shots going well regardless. If she couldn’t leave, I’d bet there was damage somewhere other than guts (fragment up to the spine, or happened to get a large vessel).


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I’m sure it’s never happened to you, because you’re just one of those guys.

Yeah probably was more damage because it was a bigger bullet.


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[prm]

Shot a good 5x5 with my 6.5CM using a 140 VLD. He made it perhaps 10’. I did give him more than one because I thought I dropped the first shot a few inches lower than desired. Didn't take long at all to go down after putting one through the heart.
I do think impacts from my 338 Fed have a more immediate response from elk, but the end result was the same. Data point of 1 using my 6.5 so I can’t make any conclusion.

 

[wyosam]

I’m sure it’s never happened to you, because you’re just one of those guys.

Yeah probably was more damage because it was a bigger bullet.


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Oh, It's happened to me, and have witnessed quite a few others over the years. I've seen enough of it that I don't take shots that I am not 100% confident in anymore. Poor hits are poor hits. Sometimes they get recovered, many times they do not. Sometimes they happen to fall over despite being hit poorly. Having a caliber comparison for gut shots at the same time from the same herd doesn't seem like an off day for a hunting party to you?

 

[Ryan Avery]

Oh, It's happened to me, and have witnessed quite a few others over the years. I've seen enough of it that I don't take shots that I am not 100% confident in anymore. Poor hits are poor hits. Sometimes they get recovered, many times they do not. Sometimes they happen to fall over despite being hit poorly. Having a caliber comparison for gut shots at the same time from the same herd doesn't seem like an off day for a hunting party to you?

Bad day for sure, but thankfully it ended with both elk being recovered.

Bad shots happen to 100% confident people all the time. When it happens I want more than a 6.5 for elk.




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[MHWASH]

Ryan,

Would you say bigger is better when comparing the ‘06 to the 6.5 PRC, assuming 400 yards? At any point in your opinion does velocity make up for diameter?

 

[Ryan Avery]

Ryan,

Would you say bigger is better when comparing the ‘06 to the 6.5 PRC, assuming 400 yards? At any point in your opinion does velocity make up for diameter?

That’s a big old can of worms and i think you know it. We talking my 06 hand-loads or factory Bigger is subjective I get it.

It’s pretty simple, in my simple mind. I want the biggest wound channel possible delivered as accurately as possible. We can war game it till the cows come home. I played the 6.5 PRC game all last year. It will no doubt kill elk. We shot six of them last year with it. But I am leaving in the morning to go elk hunting. You can bet your ass it won’t be a 6.5 going with me.... or an 06 for that matter I out!!


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[MHWASH]

That’s a big old can of worms and i think you know it. We talking my 06 hand-loads or factory Bigger is subjective I get it.

It’s pretty simple, in my simple mind. I want the biggest wound channel possible delivered as accurately as possible. We can war game it till the cows come home. I played the 6.5 PRC game all last year. It will no doubt kill elk. We shot six of them last year with it. But I am leaving in the morning to go elk hunting. You can bet your ass it won’t be a 6.5 going with me.... or an 06 for that matter I out!!


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Only handloads are interesting, the only factory I do is .22LR.

I was just get a baseline reference for what you feel is adequate.

 

[AaronMColeman]

In physics, mass x velocity = force. And the rule of thumb is 1600 ft/lbs of force to take down an elk (no idea where this number comes from). 6.5CM has the same force at 400 yards as a 30-06/.308 does at about 600 yards...very very general numbers, loads and bullet weight will really change these. In reality seems like a lot of people have seen kills that defy these numbers (I know most of you already know this, and I"m not trying to get all technical, it's just that force is a good way to compare two rounds).

Then throw into the mix, accuracy with each round, your comfortableness with each round. A 300WM will have more power out further, a 300RUM will have even more power out even further. Where do you draw the line and say, that's enough power, that's enough distance, and I'm comfortable with that gun?

6.5CM will take down an elk. It is a sweetheart of a round to shoot, which makes accuracy really high. The ballistics on 6.5 rounds are among the best, making accuracy high. I think it's a fine round, but it would not be my first choice for elk. I'd likely go something in the 30 caliber family, or something in the 7mm family. But, again, it is going to get the job done as long as the user is comfortable and the range is reasonable.

In fact, it sits in a weird place for me...but I still want one. For elk I'd prefer a 7mmRM or a 300WM. For deer and antelope I'd prefer a .243. That sorta leaves the 6.5CM in no man's land. Even for an all around, do it all gun, I'd probably choose a 7mm RM.

 

[prm]

There’s only two one hundredths of inch difference in 6.5 and 7mm bullets. I think you’d be hard pressed to identify which bullet made a hole in a critter if you didn’t know in advance. Individual circumstances and bullet type performance differences likely lead to bigger variances than the bullet diameter itself.
I‘m a fan of fatter bullets, and my previous handful of bulls were shot with .338 bullets, but after looking at the hole the 6.5 made in a bull, I have to be honest and say there really isn’t that big of a difference. The difference in internal damage of a shot between two ribs and one an inch to the left or right that hits a rib and brings bone pieces through the internals is a bigger variable.
Put a hole through the heart or lungs and get your knife. Worry more about making a good shot than the cartridge.

 

[rustyN]

In physics, mass x velocity = force. And the rule of thumb is 1600 ft/lbs of force to take down an elk (no idea where this number comes from). 6.5CM has the same force at 400 yards as a 30-06/.308 does at about 600 yards...very very general numbers, loads and bullet weight will really change these. In reality seems like a lot of people have seen kills that defy these numbers (I know most of you already know this, and I"m not trying to get all technical, it's just that force is a good way to compare two rounds).

Then throw into the mix, accuracy with each round, your comfortableness with each round. A 300WM will have more power out further, a 300RUM will have even more power out even further. Where do you draw the line and say, that's enough power, that's enough distance, and I'm comfortable with that gun?

6.5CM will take down an elk. It is a sweetheart of a round to shoot, which makes accuracy really high. The ballistics on 6.5 rounds are among the best, making accuracy high. I think it's a fine round, but it would not be my first choice for elk. I'd likely go something in the 30 caliber family, or something in the 7mm family. But, again, it is going to get the job done as long as the user is comfortable and the range is reasonable.

In fact, it sits in a weird place for me...but I still want one. For elk I'd prefer a 7mmRM or a 300WM. For deer and antelope I'd prefer a .243. That sorta leaves the 6.5CM in no man's land. Even for an all around, do it all gun, I'd probably choose a 7mm RM.

I don’t even know where to start with this, other than you should do some more research before spouting off your physics.

Terminal ballistics of a round is ultimately the deciding factor on how well it will kill, which is much more than bullet diameter, mass, velocity, etc. This has been shown time and time again.


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[AaronMColeman]

I don’t even know where to start with this, other than you should do some more research before spouting off your physics.

Terminal ballistics of a round is ultimately the deciding factor on how well it will kill, which is much more than bullet diameter, mass, velocity, etc. This has been shown time and time again.


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EDIT: I said velocity earlier when I meant acceleration

Please let me know. Honestly, if I’m wrong I’d like to know how to be right. My impression was F=MA so a 143grain at 2800fps will have more energy than a 129grain at 2800fps. Then as they lose energy after leaving the barrel that energy is “rule of thumb” 1600 ft/lb to take down an elk.

What did I get wrong? My physics was 20 years ago in college, I’m far from an expert
Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to get good information, and not spout off bad info. Thanks! PM me if you’d like, as physics probably don’t interest too many people here.

 

[rustyN]

Please let me know. Honestly, if I’m wrong I’d like to know how to be right. My impression was F=MA so a 143grain at 2800fps will have more energy than a 129grain at 2800fps. Then as they lose energy after leaving the barrel that energy is “rule of thumb” 1600 ft/lb to take down an elk.

What did I get wrong? My physics was 20 years ago in college, I’m far from an expert
Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to get good information, and not spout off bad info. Thanks!

Sorry if I came off as rude, not my intention. I’m on a phone and don’t have time to go in to details but F=ma is true but a = acceleration and not velocity. M*V = momentum. The energy people talk about being a requirement is kinetic energy which = 1/2*mass*(velocity^2).

Ultimately energy may be important but how the bullet performs at a given impact velocity will be the most important.


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[wyosam]

Energy is a somewhat useful tool, but the number really only matters if the bullet doesn’t exit (expends all its energy in the animal) if it exits, you’d have to know the new weight of the bullet, and it’s velocity on exit to know how much it put to the animal. So it should be taken with a grain of salt. Does give a second number to consider for max range- primary being impact speed for the bullet to open and penetrate. Final number (though most important) is the range that you can put it where it needs to be, for the conditions at the time of the shot.


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[Sled]

I totally disagree on gut shots. Witnessed this first had this year on the same herd of elk. 300 Rum(225 ELDM) to the guts the cow could not physically leave. 6.5 PRC(147 ELDM) to the guts and we had to kill her 1.5 miles away.

Knowing a bit about how organ systems work, if your 6.5 hit the same spot with similar force then the result would likely be the same. People call a gut shot anything behind the diaphragm. The fact is there are some pretty important organs and arteries back there that when disrupted will result in exsanguination. They wouldn't be my first choice but regardless, will result in lack of perfusion and death.

Pick a quality projectile and cartridge you can shoot accurately and shoot it within its and your limits. That's what kills elk.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Knowing a bit about how organ systems work, if your 6.5 hit the same spot with similar force then the result would likely be the same. People call a gut shot anything behind the diaphragm. The fact is there are some pretty important organs and arteries back there that when disrupted will result in exsanguination. They wouldn't be my first choice but regardless, will result in lack of perfusion and death.

Pick a quality projectile and cartridge you can shoot accurately and shoot it within its and your limits. That's what kills elk.

Wow, its that easy?? I will try that next time.

We must have a race of super snipers on Rokslide. You guys might want to change sites and head over to Snipers Hide.

Hunt long enough and bad shots happen. When they do I want a big bullet, moving fast that makes a big wound channel.






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[OneRingTrTa]

One of my girls will use my kimber Adirondack in 6.5 on her youth cow hunt. I'm shooting the 143gr ELDX. It stacks them and suppressed it's a baby to shoot.

 

[Sako76]

I killed a 5x5 raghorn in Saratoga Wyoming this year at 250 yards. 6.5 GAP, 156 Berger at 2850 fps, the elk did not fair well.

 

[Sled]

Wow, its that easy?? I will try that next time.

We must have a race of super snipers on Rokslide. You guys might want to change sites and head over to Snipers Hide.

Hunt long enough and bad shots happen. When they do I want a big bullet, moving fast that makes a big wound channel.






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i guess i stuck a nerve. i wasn't referring to "you" in particular. personally, i have had a few snap freehand shots go wrong before. i have used large calibers and small on a variety of critters. lots of variable to account for but in general the vitals are in typical spots and that is where likelihood of a clean kill is higher. you (mr avery) are entitled to your choice of calibers and i do agree that in certain circumstances, bigger is better. I just dislike how people tell other hunters they need that largest magnum they can find to kill an elk. there is nothing magical about their circulatory system.

 

[BH107]

6.5x284 worked great for me this weekend. 140gr Berger at 400 yards and the bull fell right back in the bed he had just stood up from. Not a single step...

 

[CAElkhunter]

I witnessed a woman attempt a 950 yd shot with a 6.5 on a big mature bull elk. Thankfully she missed...twice because I think that is pushing the range ethically for a clean kill. We had a big debate back at the lodge over the effective range of that gun on Elk...I still believe 950 yds is a long way to ethically kill an elk with most cartridges and well beyond the clean range for a 6.5. Worst part is if they would have put in a little physical effort they would have had a 500 yd shot and a dead 390 bull...…..but they wanted the 950 yds shot.....

I shoot a 300 Ultra and don't believe I would attempt anything over 700 unless conditions were perfect and there were extenuating circumstances. There is a difference between a gun being a "1000" yd gun and whether you should use it on elk in my opinion......