45-70 + Kodiak = What bullet?

[Yellowknife]

I'm headed to Kodiak this spring with a buddy and a pair of bear tags (DIY, since we are Alaska residents) Should be a good time. However he is absolutely stuck on using his much favored Marlin Guide Gun. As much as I like the Marlin platform, my experiences with factory rounds... even modern factory rounds... is less than stellar performance. Put them in the right spot and it certainly does the trick, but the penetration of a typical soft point is not something I'd like to rely on for bad angle shots.

I've got some dies and can potentially build him some of the "Marlin Only" loads with a better penetrating bullet. However I'm a little stuck on WHAT bullet might be better. Review of the internet forums comes up with dozens of threads on "bear loads" and "african loads", but 95% of the posters seem to have little or no actual experience with using the round on anything bigger than a whitetail. All just theoretical talk for the most part.

So far what I've found:

- Some guys like hardcast, large meplat, cast bullets. However, I haven't found much real world intel on use for big bears or other large animals. I'm sure penetration is excellent, but will they make a large enough hole on a lung shot? Will trajectory suffer significantly? Remember, I'm looking for a HUNTING round... not a short range defense round.

- Nosler partitions seem to be well liked, but discontinued

- Barnes makes an all copper bullet, but it's only 300 gr. Section Density seems a little light?

- Swift A-Frames are available, but might be a little too tough for 45-70 speeds?

If anybody has experience with 45-70 loads on large (elk+) game, I'd love to hear about it. Doubly so if you have actually used one on brown bears!

 

[5shot]

Hard Cast from Garrett... Used to take the Big 6 in Africa, in a Marlin.

African Quest Part One


BTW - if you shoot me an email I can send you a link to my dropbox account that has tons of articles on using large meplat cast bullets for game up to Cape Buffalo and Elephant...with handguns, no less.

I also cast my own and can send you some slugs to load for testing.

 

[Steve O]

I'm going to watch this one. I'd pick the Barnes without a second thought just from performance in other calibers.

If you need more weight they have a 45-70 bullet in the "Buster" line at 400g.

Disclaimer...never have shot a brown bear.

 

[Roy68]

No experience with the 45-70 beyond deer.

I wouldn't hesitate to call the bullet manufacturers that you listed and quiz them. Obviously they are bias but you should be able to weed through the sales pitch if there is one. I personally know an engineer at swift bullet company. Fwiw swift is small business in the grand scheme of things based in west Kansas (Quinter). I wouldn't hesitate to call them, as I have before. Good honest folks.

 

[Matt W.]

Great thread, subscribed to see how this shakes out.

5 shot, be great to read some of your stuff here if you can share.

 

[Yellowknife]

I wonder if an expanding bullet, followed by a mag full of hardcast might be the best trick. My big bear experience (only party to three so far, so fairly limited), is that once the first bullet strikes the next few seconds are filled with flying lead and non-optimal shot angles.

He's got a box of Buffalo Bore 405 gr +P stuff, but BB doesn't recommend it for larger animals due to more expansion than penetration. It's still not an insignificant load though, just likely less than ideal for raking shots.

Good point about calling Swift. Their bullets are $$$, but I'm sure he could put the box to good use.

5 Shot, I'll send you a PM.

As I side note, I'm backing him up with a .338 WM using Barnes TTSX @ 2900 fps.

 

[BRWNBR]

You may spend a lot of time trying to figure this out. And in the long run be just fine with any bullet. .30-'06
And cor-lokt and every other soft
Point outa 30-30's has worked for brownies. Try to think how much different 100 grains might make on a 600-1400lb animal. In my mind. Very very little. Bottom line for me has always been make the first shot kill it and use the next three to stop it. I'd be more worried about what kinda tent or rain gear to use than what bullet from a 45-70.

 

[Yellowknife]

Fair enough. You have way more experience than me, so I'll buy that. Easy to for me to get too nerdy about this stuff even though I know better. I'll be right there shooting too if all goes according to plan anyway.

Most annoying thing about those fat bullets is the lousy trajectory past 150 yds. Plan is to get close! If that doesn't work, I've got a .338 and a tag of my own, so we are covered.

 

[Yellowknife]

Oh.... And rain gear will be HH. Tent TBD. Can potentially borrow my dads Hurricane Hut, but I really need a storm worthy 4 man of my own if there are funds available. The old Trango 4 died on Kodiak a year ago and has yet to be replaced. Not too worried about it though. . The rest of the gear we pretty well have wired.

 

[bcimport]

I've seen great results with the 300gr Barnes. Buddy shot through a moose lengthwise. I like the HSM 430gr hard cast but I lack any bullet vs critter scenarios with it to tell you what terminal performance looked like.

 

[TheHardWay]

540 gr Hammerhead??

Garrett Cartridges Inc.

 

[Ray]

Woodleigh Bullets 45-70 Government (458 Diameter) 405 Grain Bonded

What about woodleigh? Their products are fairly specific to dangerous game performance.


Another link about their mono solids in Africa and soft points.

 

[Yellowknife]

Woodleigh Bullets 45-70 Government (458 Diameter) 405 Grain Bonded

What about woodleigh? Their products are fairly specific to dangerous game performance.


Another link about their mono solids in Africa and soft points.

Per woodleigh, they recommend an impact speed of 1700 fps+. Weird for a supposed 45-70 bullet, because even a hot load drops below that speed before it hits 50 yds. Suspect it might be a typo? I'd be willing to bet with all that exposed lead it would be doing some expanding!

 

[5shot]

Great thread, subscribed to see how this shakes out.

5 shot, be great to read some of your stuff here if you can share.

The articles are not mine...just stuff that I downloaded from article archives on the net. A bunch are located here: a little Ross anyone? | Single-Actions

Open the index first, and it will direct you to which articles are which. The Ultimate Sport, 475 Down Under, Ultimate Cast Handgun Bullets and Monster Sixguns are must reads in my opinion...all are really good.

 

[JP100]

First place I guided at they had .45-70s for bear spray loaded with 400grain Barnes originals.
I never shot anything apart from rocks with it but the older guides had used them effectively on bears(griz and black) and one bow hunter ended up shooting a moose with one while I was there.
Woodleigh also make some solid bullets id sent em a email or call em.

P.S I have also never shot a bear

 

[ruggy]

I would use North Fork Cup point Solid

Use this bullet in .452 out 460 S&W to take a Grizzly last year and had them with me this year.

Plenty guys using the .458 bullets in Africa- more up to a modern bullet for improved performance.
i have some loaded now in 45-70 but not used them on a hunt- next years Canadian Bear

Good luck be safe
Ruggy