.410 viable at this point?

[cuerro viejo]

You lost me with the victim card.

Use a .410 or don't. It does not affect me one bit.

in his defense you are the one that posted gauge equals killing distance, when in fact it doesnt, it just equals amount of shot in the air. Patterning(forcing cone, muzzle restriction, etc) equals distance. My 28 out patterns my 12 every day at multiple distances, and is sub 5lbs gun.

you then proceeded to tell people that load 80 plus pounds of TSS in 28 and 410 a year that they are idiots or lying. Grant not everyone gets to hunt flooded corn and private wetlands in the morning and then pound out pheasants, cranes and geese in the afternoon for 90 plus days a years so your actual understanding using the sub gauges with TSS is strictly just lack of experience or older pre TSS experience.

 

[cuerro viejo]

To OP 410 is highly effective. If you dont reload it can be expensive to shoot. But even TSS being expensive is relative. If you have a 2-3 bird pheasant limit, 3 sandhill limit, 1-5 turkey year limit, 6 duck limit, 3 heavy geese limit etc is it really that expensive?

In terms of quail, dove, snows, etc where its high volume, yes pick another caliber.

I can tell you from a duck hunting stand point its hard to get a 6plus man straight green limit, but it became a bigger normal once jumping down to 410 and 28’s with TSS. When you start shooting a 410 auto you understand why real quick. report doesnt effect the birds as much and you begin to get more double and triples due to less rise and less flarey birds. I do prefer 28 but the 410 is a close second.

Op pattern your shot gun learn what it does with different chokes and ammo and go hunt. People only know what they have experienced.

 

[Macintosh]

agree...to a point. 410 is certainly capable of shooting ruffed grouse and woodcock and many other things, although shooting through a lot of brush tends to soak up shot, so where I typically hunt it's not ideal past extremely short range even if objectively it'll kill fine on a clays range. Longer range (for a 410) I know tss or similar does fine and allows for a bit denser pattern, but even if you can get it to pattern wide enough, that stuff is literally like 50 times the price of lead. My dog is pretty old so I havent bird hunted as much as normal the past few years, but given a healthy dog I go through about a flat of 20ga shells every bird season--250 rounds. TSS is almost $50 for 5 shots--that's $2500 in ammo alone for just one season, compared to the normal $50-$75 for a flat. Assuming no price increase that's $12,500 in 5 years, just for hunting. Frankly, if I wanted a nice light recoiling gun to hunt birds with I'd rather buy a $5,000 20ga shotgun and 225 boxes (5625 rounds) of super-premium RST 3/4oz shotshells in the snazzy paper hulls ($22/box=$4950)...which SAVES $2500 compard to 250 rounds/year of the TSS, plus gives me roughly 4000 rounds to shoot clays with over that 5year period, and a really nice new shotgun to boot. This is what I mean when I say it's prohibitive--I have extremely good options that are a LOT cheaper and allow me to put my $ into other things.

 

[t_carlson]

Huh? Not gettin' what ya mean by "victim card", just calling you out on your BS of being all "holier than thou".

Because you're in essence putting yourself above others when you said, and I quote :

"If you have to ask what a .410 "works decently for" you are not well-versed enough in guns and hunting to be responding with a "Duh!" to anyone's answer."


Which is pure BS and a false-equivalency when you say that. Because all me saying that proves is that I'm not experienced with using a freakin' .410. Nothing else.

So... as part of my due-diligence, I legitimately had questions as to what it's limitations are. You know.. wanting to educate yourself, to insure you're being ethical with it's use should I find myself using one some day... or, should I have to watch over a younger hunter some day, and not trying to take game animals you shouldn't be trying to take with one.

Not a DAMN THING wrong with me asking that question.. conversely there's a DAMN LOT wrong with how you CHOSE to respond.

Your response alienates and creates division. Like ya took a page from the Left's playbook or something.

1) Victim card = "I was not fortunate enough to be able to participate in this sport as a kid..."

2) Read back through the thread. You got snarky in response to my answer, not the other way around.

3) Personal attacks are an indication you're argument is weak. Now you're writing curse words in all caps.

 

[t_carlson]

The fact of the matter is, you can see effectiveness drop off as shotgun bore gets smaller and smaller. Anyone who tells you otherwise hasn't watched enough birds fall or is lying.

in his defense you are the one that posted gauge equals killing distance, when in fact it doesnt, it just equals amount of shot in the air. Patterning(forcing cone, muzzle restriction, etc) equals distance. My 28 out patterns my 12 every day at multiple distances, and is sub 5lbs gun.

you then proceeded to tell people that load 80 plus pounds of TSS in 28 and 410 a year that they are idiots or lying. Grant not everyone gets to hunt flooded corn and private wetlands in the morning and then pound out pheasants, cranes and geese in the afternoon for 90 plus days a years so your actual understanding using the sub gauges with TSS is strictly just lack of experience or older pre TSS experience.

I stand by what I said.

Chronograph your .410 load and then let us know what you come up with. A 12 gauge will hit 1500 easily. The energy of a pellet is determined by its velocity. Period. More pellets mean either a denser pattern or a bigger pattern, or both. Period.

If you're 12 gauge isn't patterning good, that is an argument for trying another choke or load. That is not proof that a .410 is better or equal. I'm sure I can find you a .410 that patterns like garbage.

I also don't believe you load 4K$ in shot pellets alone in a year. I think that is a "Texan" statement.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I stand by what I said.

Chronograph your .410 load and then let us know what you come up with. A 12 gauge will hit 1500 easily. The energy of a pellet is determined by its velocity. Period. More pellets mean either a denser pattern or a bigger pattern, or both. Period.

If you're 12 gauge isn't patterning good, that is an argument for trying another choke or load. That is not proof that a .410 is better or equal. I'm sure I can find you a .410 that patterns like garbage.

I also don't believe you load 4K$ in shot pellets alone in a year. I think that is a "Texan" statement.

KE=M xV2
Momentum= MxV

I’ll help you
lead- 11.11 g/cc
steel-7.8 g/cc
bismuth-9 g/cc
TSS-18 g/cc

there is a reason I said earlier TSS is a waste of money in a 20 and 12 ga and I dont spend 4k on TSS

as a group of friends you can buy 300lb-600lb lots out of china. So thats $1000-$1800 per 80lbs depending on lot size and supplier, Now divide that by family members and what ever friends get invited.

Like I said I get you are skepticism, Im not offended by it. I use to have same thought process.

You dont know what you haven't experienced. You may not hunt waterfowl like my kids and I do, or dont have same hunting access so you would never go down the sub gauge route

Texans isnt a TX state reference by the way. Former employment.

 

[t_carlson]

KE=M xV2
Momentum= MxV

I’ll help you
lead- 11.11 g/cc
steel-7.8 g/cc
bismuth-9 g/cc
TSS-18 g/cc

there is a reason I said earlier TSS is a waste of money in a 20 and 12 ga and I dont spend 4k on TSS

“we as a group of friends” buy 300lb-600lb lots out of china. So I spend about $1000-$1800 per 80lbs depending on lot size and supplier we get, Now divide that by 5 family members and what ever friends I invite.

Like I said I get you are skepticism, Im not offended by it. I use to have same thought process.

You dont know what you haven't experienced. You many not hunt waterfowl like I and my kids do, or dont have same hunting access.

Texans isnt a TX state reference by the way. Former employment.

I see you have declined to give us a MV of your loads, so I'll ballpark:

A 3" .410 can send 3/4 oz of shot out of the muzzle at about 1200
A 3" 12 gauge can send 1 3/8oz of shot out of the muzzle at about 1500

Put the same shot in either and a 12 gauge is more effective. Its physics.

This statement is patently false: "gauge equals killing distance, when in fact it doesnt, it just equals amount of shot in the air. Patterning(forcing cone, muzzle restriction, etc) equals distance."

Now, if you add the caveat that "TSS is a waste of money in a 20 or 12 gauge" then you are tipping the scales. That is like saying a .243 with a Barnes X will penetrate better on elk than a .300 Win Mag shooting 150gr Ballistic Tips. Yes, it probably is, but you have rigged the game. That is not a comparison of .243 vs. .300, it is a comparison of a mono bullet vs. a frangible lead one.

I've shot a bunch of the various non-toxic pellets, including TSS. I hunt waterfowl multiple days a week when the season is open.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I see you have declined to give us a MV of your loads, so I'll ballpark:

A 3" .410 can send 3/4 oz of shot out of the muzzle at about 1200
A 3" 12 gauge can send 1 3/8oz of shot out of the muzzle at about 1500

Put the same shot in either and a 12 gauge is more effective. Its physics.

This statement is patently false: "gauge equals killing distance, when in fact it doesnt, it just equals amount of shot in the air. Patterning(forcing cone, muzzle restriction, etc) equals distance."

Now, if you add the caveat that "TSS is a waste of money in a 20 or 12 gauge" then you are tipping the scales. That is like saying a .243 with a Barnes X will penetrate better on elk than a .300 Win Mag shooting 150gr Ballistic Tips. Yes, it probably is, but you have rigged the game. That is not a comparison of .243 vs. .300, it is a comparison of a mono bullet vs. a frangible lead one.

I've shot a bunch of the various non-toxic pellets, including TSS. I hunt waterfowl multiple days a week when the season is open.

I didn't decline its just pretty standard, 1100 +- for 13/16 #8-10 TSS, you can get steel and bismuth a probably up to 1300

TSS in
12ga 2.5 oz 1000-1200
20ga 2.0oz 1000-1200

with that said you can run 1500 with 1 3/8 of #9 TSS? Have fun with that…... Thats steel and steel is a joke. Hypersonics at 1700 where effective but hell on guns. with TSS you would run a 2.5oz load at 1000-1100

As far as patterning I dont know what to tell you, Nothing has beat my 28ga with #9 and #8 TSS. 410 is pretty damn close,

as far as what matters.
12ga 1 3/8 #6 lead is 307 pellets
12ga 1 3/8 #7 lead is 409 pellets
12ga 1 3/8 #4 steel is 263 pellets
12ga 1 3/8 #5 steel is 236 pellets

410 13/16 #9 TTS is 294 pellets

Id say #9 TTS performs similar to #6-7 lead and 4-5 steel range.

TTS volume is lower then steel and lead per oz as it weighs more soooooo you get over kill b/c as you run larger gauges you get larger loads.

12ga 2 1/2oz #9 is 905 pellet
20ga 2 oz #9 is 724 pellet

If you can get 20/12ga steel and even lead performance with out the same recoil, less powder and less report with smaller gauges whats the down side?

Anyway cooled of so I’m off to finish planting.

 

[TheGDog]

1) Victim card = "I was not fortunate enough to be able to participate in this sport as a kid..."

2) Read back through the thread. You got snarky in response to my answer, not the other way around.

3) Personal attacks are an indication you're argument is weak. Now you're writing curse words in all caps.

1) That's just stating facts. No victimization mentality. I didn't start with hunting until 45yo. Certainly had enjoyed shooting since 18+ as my own man, but life kept me busy, so just never got around to hunting. So those two things together, I'm not going to have experience with a .410, hence the reason to ask the question.

2. OF COURSE I replied "Duh!" cause you mentioned the whole lower recoil thing. And everybody and their Mama knows that's what .410's are for, so young kids can start on something light-recoiling. No surprise there.

3. Personal attacks? Dude.. I merely reported what you did, merely checked you on your un-neighborly and un-savory behaviour. "Attack" laughable! BUAAHAHAHAA!!!... So are you telling me you consider "DAMN" as a "curse-word"? Oh boy... the irony of this guy acting offended by that... after he first goes and tries to insult me to such a degree! You can't make this stuff up folks!

 

[doc holiday13]

Id say #9 TTS performs similar to #6-7 lead and 4-5 steel range.

I'd venture to say TSS #9 is every bit as good as #5-4 lead.

That said, shot selection comes as preference and depth of pockets.

You won't catch me hunting ducks, rabbits, or squirrels with TSS. It just cost waaay too much to shoot that many shells in TSS. I'll turkey hunt with TSS all day every day. Turkey is a sport where you're lucky if you see one, so why not get the pattern density advantage of TSS? I'll burn $50 in bismuth in 1 duck hunt. Same number of shots in commercially load TSS would be $450ish. Thats basically 50 shots.. Turkey I'll burn 3 shells in a season over 5-6 hunts. Turkey loads in TSS are near $10/shot but it'll wallop them out to 60 yards

 

[t_carlson]

So are you telling me you consider "DAMN" as a "curse-word"?

Yes. Should I post a poll?

 

[cuerro viejo]

I'd venture to say TSS #9 is every bit as good as #5-4 lead.

That said, shot selection comes as preference and depth of pockets.

You won't catch me hunting ducks, rabbits, or squirrels with TSS. It just cost waaay too much to shoot that many shells in TSS. I'll turkey hunt with TSS all day every day. Turkey is a sport where you're lucky if you see one, so why not get the pattern density advantage of TSS? I'll burn $50 in bismuth in 1 duck hunt. Same number of shots in commercially load TSS would be $450ish. Thats basically 50 shots.. Turkey I'll burn 3 shells in a season over 5-6 hunts. Turkey loads in TSS are near $10/shot but it'll wallop them out to 60 yards

just 5 years ago you could get TSS for $10 a pound bulk from over seas, oh the good old days

 

[AArmsnw]

I’d stick to 20 or 28ga if you don’t want to use a 12.

 

[49ereric]

410 bore is still good as originally intended for putting meat on the table with lead shot.
just have to be sneaky hunter to get the shorter shots needed. Mostly a squirrel gun for me but an occasional ruffed grouse. Not a lot of snowshoe rabbits here anymore or I would add them to the crock pot.
I bought a case of 2 1/2” win aa hs shells years ago cheap and reload them by hand when needed and bought the supplies to do that and made the tool to do that mostly hand tools everyone has.
TSS opened a whole new dimension for those that choose to but I’ll pass.

 

[Raghornklr]

3” 6 shot with a fixed full choke has always Worked for me, aside from waterfowl I like taking the .410.

 

[tbakke24]

410 is great for shooting black birds or squirrels. If you want to hunt upland or waterfowl go 20 or 12 gauge lot more shells and way cheaper.

 

[go_deep]

I see the .410 no different than shooting a recurve for archery season, it's a challenge, gives the critter more of a chance.
That being said, my kids have killed the crap out of turkeys and upland birds with a single shot .410 for about 8 years.

 

[mrolen]

Love my 410 for grouse and have shot some quail with it but pretty tricky to get good kill shots on flying birds. I stick with a 20 and 12 ga for anything serious

 

[49ereric]

Ordered a Stoeger 410 coach gun the other day. Hope it shoots to same point of aim and is not a lemon but 5 year warranty.
I’m hard on firearms so budget gun is best for me.
$415 sale price and no sales tax free shipping with the online purchase and now the wait…