.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Lawnboi]

You mind sharing what powder and primer you’re using? My results with the 75s have been quite erratic, but the 73s have been lasers.

I shot cases of factory 73s before I started reloading. They were awesome out to 600 for me.

My 75 eldm load
-Fires Hornady brass
-.010 off lands approximately
-24 grains of varget
-cci 450
-2760fps av out of a 20” suppressed tikka.

This was a 1-1.5” load before I chopped and threaded. With the suppressor and shorter barrel it shoots better than I can. My 77 load which is very similar also shot just as good suppressed.

 

[Trial153]

I don’t know why I am drawn to this tread as pretty much skip over everything firearm hunting related as I don’t rifle hunt at all. I really like how it stands conventional theory on its head and back it’s with facts, experience and logic.
Lots to learn from it.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

I don’t know why I am drawn to this tread as pretty much skip over everything firearm hunting related as I don’t rifle hunt at all. I really like how it stands conventional theory on its head and back it’s with facts, experience and logic.
Lots to learn from it.

It's been a fascinating learning experience for me. I believe Form when he tells me a 77TMK will smash shoulder and make it lungs, but I'd be lying if I said it doesn't cause a bit of cognitive dissonance. Back when magnumitis was the thing, I never bought into that. I have never owned a "magnum" rifle. A mild 6.5x55, 257R or 243 with a Partition was all I'd need for anything I'd hunt short of a brown bear. My experience showed me how effective good, small, well placed bullets could be. My issue was my programming to believe match bullets weren't tough enough or they wouldn't consistently expand. They were for putting holes in paper.

I am a changed man.

 

[Juan_ID]

Another chance if you missed the last drop…

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....TBUUCKOAS&trk_link=KUT08TQA0E941CDQ4BD1EFIQ2S

 

[Hthunter]

I'm a new member and have been reading this post for a few days and learning a lot. As many others, after reading this post, I have a T3x stainless 223 on back order (SWFA 6x and sportsmatch rings lol). I plan on chopping barrel and running suppressed (TBAC U7 or Sandman Ti) for deer and practice. My question is how far to go till I get to point of handicapping cartridge. My initial thought is 18'', but if still effective with even shorter barrel I'm all in. As for now I will be shooting factory 62gr fusion until I can score enough primers for 77 TMKs. Thanks for any input.

 

[Formidilosus]

My question is how far to go till I get to point of handicapping cartridge. My initial thought is 18'', but if still effective with even shorter barrel I'm all in.

That will depend on bullet, MV, and environment.

In general-

16”= 400y
18”= 450y
20”= 500y

 

[Formidilosus]

That’s with 77gr TMK and the 8208 load.

 

[Juan_ID]

That’s with 77gr TMK and the 8208 load.

You ever tried H4895? I got a few lbs to play with and did a ladder test with the 75gr eldm’s and liked the velocities but never finished it. I am planning on trying it with the tmk’s

 

[Hthunter]

Thanks Form, that’s just what I was looking for. I remembered it being mentioned in earlier post but got lost in the 50 pages. I think I’ll go 18-20, might just split difference and do 19”.

 

[TheGDog]

n00b Question: On the entry side wound, how do these 77 TMK's compare in terms of the circle of bloodshot meat all around the entry hole?

I'm asking with curiosity because 168gr TTSX .308's, at short distances on Mule Deer, createed like this massive 6" circle of bloodshot all around the entry wound. And I noted almost no bloodshot on entry wound w/ 150gr .30-30 at even closer distances, on a heavier and more mature deer.

Both are tipped projectiles. 2400fps vs 2680fps 150 vs 168.

Does it also happen that more bloodshot meat occurs when the projectile happens to enter the body at a firmer area of musculature? Is that what can cause such heavy bloodshotting?

 

[JW7]

I love the 223 for a lot of things, but big game hunting isn’t one of them. Glad to hear you had success with that combo though.

 

[Formidilosus]

You ever tried H4895? I got a few lbs to play with and did a ladder test with the 75gr eldm’s and liked the velocities but never finished it. I am planning on trying it with the tmk’s

Yes. Shot well, but velocities weren’t as high. 23.7gr 8208, in just about any case and any SR primer loaded to mag length will shoot in every gun we’ve.

 

[Formidilosus]

Does it also happen that more bloodshot meat occurs when the projectile happens to enter the body at a firmer area of musculature? Is that what can cause such heavy bloodshotting?

No. That’s temporary stretch cavity (TC) causing that. TC is heavily dependent on velocity. A mono bullet at 2,400fps is getting close to the threshold of the TC having much effect.

 

[TheGDog]

No. That’s temporary stretch cavity (TC) causing that. TC is heavily dependent on velocity. A mono bullet at 2,400fps is getting close to the threshold of the TC having much effect.

Hrmm... ok.. hence the reason the .30-30 didn't have all the blood shot around the entry, and the .308 in that loading did?

One or two petals ripped off the .308, thankfully happened to see them while enjoying a certain piece of the meat and thankfully it was not found by chewing

 

[wind gypsy]

You ever tried H4895? I got a few lbs to play with and did a ladder test with the 75gr eldm’s and liked the velocities but never finished it. I am planning on trying it with the tmk’s

I've not tried the elds with it but have 77 TMKs. H4895 will get you more velocity than varget and be less compressed. I think it's a great option. That said, accuracy in my t3x lite seems to be best around the same velocity that it likes with varget. If nothing else you benefit from it being less compressed at that velocity vs varget.

 

[Kimber7man]

I don’t have any 8208, but have plenty of TAC. And a line on 1,000 of the 77 TMK’s. Guess I should stock up?

 

[Lawnboi]

Yes. Shot well, but velocities weren’t as high. 23.7gr 8208, in just about any case and any SR primer loaded to mag length will shoot in every gun we’ve.

I know your getting bombarded with questions but figured I’d ask. What are you seeing for velocities with the above 8208 load? Iv got varget and xbr and need to pick a powder for this years 77s in Lapua brass. I’m at 2700 with mildly compressed varget in a 20” suppressed tikka factory barrel.

 

[ElPollo]

Well, gents, I grabbed 500 rounds of the American Reloading 77 TMK to test. The AR 77 TMK ammo came to me in Hornady brass, loose packed 250 rounds to a box. I sent 30 rounds in front of my Lab Radar, which picked up 28. I also fired 10 rounds of generic "Green Tip" with a "P S D" head stamp (don't remember the source). It's 30 deg C and 71% humidity here at lovely Fort Benning, about 450 feet ASL. The rifle is a 16" DD M4V1 purchased in late 2009 with a standard milspec 1:7 barrel and a 5.56 NATO chamber. Below today's data, I'll be presenting historical data taken with an MSv3 in central North Carolina under roughly similar conditions.

20210711:
"Green Tip" - Vavg 2906 fps, SD 20.4 fps, ES 69 fps
AR 77 TMK - Vavg 2565 fps, SD 21.4 fps, ES 78 fps

Historical Data:
PMC M193 (55 grain FMJ) - Vavg 2989, SD 23 fps, ES 82 fps
ZQI M855/SS109 - Vavg 2920 fps, SD 34 fps, ES 98 fps
Lapua 69 grain Scenar - Vavg 2837 fps, SD 18 fps, ES 67 fps
CorBon 77 SMK - Vavg 2529, SD 30 fps, ES 94 fps

Calculations:
Using JBM Ballistics, the AR 77 TMK crosses 1800 fps at ~400 yards with roughly 31 inches of drop on average from a 50 meter zero. The slowest shot recorded was 2522 fps and the fastest was 2600 fps. These would be 33 inches low and 30 inches low respectively.

In terms of trajectory and retained velocity, the 77 TMK compares favorably with the 110 VMax @2600 fps from my 6.8 SPC 16" AR-15. The VMax crosses 1800 fps at roughly 375 yards and drop is funtionally identical at 400 yards. The 120 SST @2440 fps MV crosses 1800 fps at roughly 335 yards.

Wind Drift for the 77 TMK in a 10 mph 3/9 o'clock wind is 15.6". That compares to 17.3" for the 69 grain Scenar or, in the 6.8 SPC, 17.5" for the 120 SST, 17.8" for 110 VMax.

Conclusions:
The 30 rounds tested here for velocity and accuracy functioned without issues and made a neat little brass pile at about the 2 o'clock position. My supposition is that this ammunition is loaded on the light side. The 69 grain Lapua runs ~2840 fps. An 8 grain difference in projectile weight doesn't justify a 275 fps difference in MV. The Black hills spec for Mk262 Mod 1-C is 2750 fps. In terms of quality, I consider it "run of the mill." That is to say that it is similar to ammunition tested from several major manufacturers. It is NOT match grade, regardless of using a "match" bullet. .223/5.56 ammunition in general evidences much higher SD/ES in my testing than 6.8 SPC ammunition.

All shooting was conducted from the prone, off a sand bag (no rear rest) with an Aimpoint PRO. The best accuracy from this rifle has been obtained with the Lapua 69 grain Scenar @ ~1.5 MOA. The M885/SS109 tends to be ~ 2MOA depending on who loads it. The AR 77 TMK was a roughly 3 MOA load today. In my case, the rifle and my performance as a shooter will become an issue well before the performance of the bullet, even from a modest MV of 2565 fps.

American Reloading apparently has a few leftovers of this 77 gr TMK ammo that aren’t up on their web page. I just ordered 500 rounds from them. If you email them directly, you might get lucky. If not, it might motivate them to make another run of it.

 

[Shraggs]

I know your getting bombarded with questions but figured I’d ask. What are you seeing for velocities with the above 8208 load? Iv got varget and xbr and need to pick a powder for this years 77s in Lapua brass. I’m at 2700 with mildly compressed varget in a 20” suppressed tikka factory barrel.

I believe it’s going to be around 2850 if I recall

 

[PNWGATOR]

I get 2880 out of my factory length Tikka