1911’s in general, 9mm versions specifically

[huntsman22]

S&W knows how to do external extractors right......

 

[fwafwow]

I got the TT Gunleather for the CS. I also got the RMR HD but haven't installed it yet.

 

[Sponge]

Man, I guess I'm gonna be the Debbie Downer on SW1911's.

I posted about mine a while back and extraction/ejection issues it has. Since then I've been using Cherry Blamz per @RockAndSage recommendation, replaced springs with 23# main and 18.5# recoil, swapped the full length guide rod for GI length.

Still having issues with 230 gr gunshow reloads and Fed American Eagle 230 gr, doing no magazine ejection test, it will puke 6/8 out the bottom of the mag well. All of the above stuff improved the function - but improved it from crushing cases to them dropping out the magwell instead (with no mag inserted). The Federal stuff functions no better than 20 year old gun show ammo, both 800-830 fps.

Interestingly, 200 gr reloads doing 700 fps functioned much better, correctly ejecting 6 or 7 out of 8 with no mag inserted. no idea what that's about.

I'm going to hose off the extractor with carb cleaner, try some +P 230gr stuff, then I think this guy is going to SW to look over.

 

[RockAndSage]

Man, I guess I'm gonna be the Debbie Downer on SW1911's.

I posted about mine a while back and extraction/ejection issues it has. Since then I've been using Cherry Blamz per @RockAndSage recommendation, replaced springs with 23# main and 18.5# recoil, swapped the full length guide rod for GI length.

Still having issues with 230 gr gunshow reloads and Fed American Eagle 230 gr, doing no magazine ejection test, it will puke 6/8 out the bottom of the mag well. All of the above stuff improved the function - but improved it from crushing cases to them dropping out the magwell instead (with no mag inserted). The Federal stuff functions no better than 20 year old gun show ammo, both 800-830 fps.

Interestingly, 200 gr reloads doing 700 fps functioned much better, correctly ejecting 6 or 7 out of 8 with no mag inserted. no idea what that's about.

I'm going to hose off the extractor with carb cleaner, try some +P 230gr stuff, then I think this guy is going to SW to look over.

These are the kinds of situations I like, because of how much you get to learn though going through the diagnostic steps. Very glad to see that the earlier suggestions generally improved overall performance, too.

With this, it's really weird that it seems to want to eject casings in a downward direction. Especially if it's well lubed in all the right places sufficiently - that should have the slide going back fast enough to eject casings very well. Complete conjecture here, but two things come to mind, both of which relate to how the ejector and extractor are interfacing with case rim.

First thing I'd do is pull the extractor, clean its channel, and also inspect the face of the extractor's hook, the part that's actually pulling against the brass. If that somehow got chipped, warped, or worn in a way that isn't a 90-degree vertical flat face perpendicular to the bore axis, it could want to fling things in odd directions.

The second thing would be to examine the face of the ejector, for something similar - if you see an abnormal angle not perpendicular to the bore axis, it could also want to fling a casing in the odd direction. Also, look closely while it's still in the gun, to see if the face is perpendicular as-installed...if it has been bent upwards by a mag being over-inserted, that might alter the geometries enough to cause odd ejection patterns.

The only other thing that comes to mind, would be dropping the recoil spring weight down to the next available weight - that would have the slide's backward velocity increasing a bit, and would help with the diagnostics a bit too.

A lot of this bears similarities to working on cars - diagnostics are far more important and harder to acquire than the ability to swap out parts. That's a major difference between a gunsmith and an armorer, too.

 

[Dobermann]

The new Kimber Next Generation 1911s have external extractors too, and those might be interesting to try.

Lots to think about in your post, and possibly ask questions about on another day.

But in the meantime, I haven't heard anything about these - have only seen the flurry about the 2k11 and Warrior - is there a good source for an overview of these / what have you heard about them?

I narrowly missed out on an S&W Pro 1911 and was curious about the external extractor ... hadn't looked into it yet beyond Sweeney's dismissal ...

 

[Sponge]

First thing I'd do is pull the extractor, clean its channel, and also inspect the face of the extractor's hook, the part that's actually pulling against the brass. If that somehow got chipped, warped, or worn in a way that isn't a 90-degree vertical flat face perpendicular to the bore axis, it could want to fling things in odd directions.

This is the crux of the problem, see picture below (pic from the internet, but the same model pistol). That pin presses out to remove the extractor. I've tried to remove it, but after a few smart taps with a punch and it not moving I'm considering this a manufacture service only part - google-fu suggests the same.
I'll clean it out with carb cleaner best I can before sending it in.

I'm leaning towards a hook geometry and/or tension issue. It will hold a case with the shake test, so maybe geometry more than tension. In some of my googling I've read that SW had issues with extractors in early pistols in this model lineup, mine would be the first or second year of production. There are also machining burrs on the barrel crown and barrel feed ramp - This is starting to turn into an excuse to have their performance center give it some love.

The second thing would be to examine the face of the ejector, for something similar - if you see an abnormal angle not perpendicular to the bore axis, it could also want to fling a casing in the odd direction. Also, look closely while it's still in the gun, to see if the face is perpendicular as-installed...if it has been bent upwards by a mag being over-inserted, that might alter the geometries enough to cause odd ejection patterns.

Cursory look at the ejector doesn't show any obvious issues. Square to breech face, not bent up, etc. I'll have to give it a closer look to see where it hits the case rim.

The only other thing that comes to mind, would be dropping the recoil spring weight down to the next available weight - that would have the slide's backward velocity increasing a bit, and would help with the diagnostics a bit too.

The springs that were in it were either lighter weight springs or very worn, presumably these met the 'increase slide velocity' threshold - same issues with those springs and the full/extra power springs.

 

[RockAndSage]

Lots to think about in your post, and possibly ask questions about on another day.

I just re-read my post, and wanted to add that my answer shouldn't be interpreted as "internal extractors BAD", impossible to deal with, etc. That's not the case.

I've had a number of replacements that were practically drop-in. And a couple that were an immense pain to get running, with filing and honing and tweaking after multiple range trips, with hiccups still occurring randomly after nearly 1000 rounds. How the gun was built seems to play a role - the most difficult ones have been on expensive custom guns.

That last experience was the final straw for me though, in going over to Sigs in the late 1990s. It was the random nature of the hiccups, even on the more or less tuned and reliable high-cap 1911s (Paras, Caspians, STIs, etc), that caused the switch. It wasn't that those 1911s were "unreliable", it just that they'd still randomly throw a hiccup, often at the worst possible time in training. The first time I went through 2000 rounds of .40 S&W without a single malfunction in a 229, the 1911s got retired from being carried. Problem solved, moving on in complete peace of mind.

All that, while having a couple of instructors/mentors who burned through .45ACP ammo by the pallet in their institution-built 1911s.

It's an issue that's vexed me for a couple of decades, given how much I genuinely love the 1911s - it almost felt like a betrayal to go over to Sigs, along with a step down in shootability. The best I can surmise is the lack of sufficient, predictable reliability was some sort of combo of early generation high-cap mags, .45 ACP geometry and parts punishment from its power, some of the extractor metallurgy stuff mentioned above, and the very real possibility of a couple smiths building in a manner not appropriate for the intended purpose of the guns, or simply with less competence than advertised. And certainly, there's always the possibility of user error in there too, especially given I was young at the time. But, all those problems went away with Sigs.

What has become very evident over the last couple of years though, is that modern precision machining and 9mm chamberings seem to also have made those problems largely disappear. Putting 5000rds on the Staccato C without a single malfunction almost felt like coming back to the church, after decades of absence, in all the best ways.

But in the meantime, I haven't heard anything about these - have only seen the flurry about the 2k11 and Warrior - is there a good source for an overview of these / what have you heard about them?

Nothing so far, just extrapolating about slide performance based on the 2k11s.

 

[Sponge]

COAs on Springfield 1911s
https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/springfield-armory-now-aimpoint-coaequipped/552451
https://www.springfield-armory.com/springfield-armory-x-aimpoint-coa

@Formidilosus is this who you were referencing getting licensed for the cuts?

 

[CaptArab]

The new COA TRPs are super nice. Just shoots the wrong bullet

C24/RCR on the left feels silly by comparison.
I might just sell the rcr, buy the COA prodigy for gamer stuff and carry the C with irons.

 

[Sponge]

Just shoots the wrong bullet

no doubt. Were either in 9mm I would've smashed the buy button so fast. As it is I'm hovering on it now.

Did you get one?

 

[RockAndSage]

The new COA TRPs are super nice. Just shoots the wrong bullet

C24/RCR on the left feels silly by comparison.
I might just sell the rcr, buy the COA prodigy for gamer stuff and carry the C with irons.
View attachment 1071778View attachment 1071777

@Formidilosus , IIRC, don't you hold one of the Springfield models in high regard? Is it still in production, or was it one of their custom shop guns or something?

 

[Formidilosus]

COAs on Springfield 1911s
https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/springfield-armory-now-aimpoint-coaequipped/552451
https://www.springfield-armory.com/springfield-armory-x-aimpoint-coa

@Formidilosus is this who you were referencing getting licensed for the cuts?

No sir- Procision Arms is getting setup to do it.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus , IIRC, don't you hold one of the Springfield models in high regard? Is it still in production, or was it one of their custom shop guns or something?

Springfield can make some good guns.
The one you are referencing is the Professional. It was a custom shop made gun for the FBI HRT and SWAT teams. Truly excellent pistols.

 

[Dobermann]

Nothing so far, just extrapolating about slide performance based on the 2k11s.

Looks like they all have the Ed Brown bobtailled grip ...

 

[Sponge]

No sir- Procision Arms is getting setup to do it.

Will this require an unmilled slide, or will it clean up a novak cut? or tbd?

 

[RockAndSage]

This is the crux of the problem, see picture below (pic from the internet, but the same model pistol). That pin presses out to remove the extractor. I've tried to remove it, but after a few smart taps with a punch and it not moving I'm considering this a manufacture service only part - google-fu suggests the same.
I'll clean it out with carb cleaner best I can before sending it in.

I'm leaning towards a hook geometry and/or tension issue. It will hold a case with the shake test, so maybe geometry more than tension. In some of my googling I've read that SW had issues with extractors in early pistols in this model lineup, mine would be the first or second year of production. There are also machining burrs on the barrel crown and barrel feed ramp - This is starting to turn into an excuse to have their performance center give it some love.

View attachment 1071584

Cursory look at the ejector doesn't show any obvious issues. Square to breech face, not bent up, etc. I'll have to give it a closer look to see where it hits the case rim.

The springs that were in it were either lighter weight springs or very worn, presumably these met the 'increase slide velocity' threshold - same issues with those springs and the full/extra power springs.

Yeah...not being able to remove that extractor kinda causes some user-level limitations in hashing all this out. It definitely would be interesting to see what S&W's performance people could do in tuning up or enhancing your gun.

One thing just came to mind about how those casings are getting crushed by the front of the ejection port - your gun doesn't have a Wilson Shok-Buff in it, does it? On some guns those remove just enough rearward travel to result in short-stroking, but it can be hard to predict which ones will have a problem, and which ones get benefit.

 

[Sponge]

your gun doesn't have a Wilson Shok-Buff in it, does it?

No Shok-buff or anything like that.
But that does give me a little idea, the swinging link is a little stiff, unsure why, has always been like that. Ill pull it out out and see if I can clean up the link and get smoother operation from it.

It definitely would be interesting to see what S&W's performance people could do in tuning up or enhancing your gun.

I'm curious too. their website has several 1911 work packages, but no detailed description, ie "action job", what does action job entail? I would be interested to hear if they can convert it to their larger performance center extractor.
Frankly, aside from s-ing the bed overy other mag its decent - good trigger, smooth cycling, accurate.