1911’s in general, 9mm versions specifically

[Gribley]

how would a SAO 9mm p229 compare to a 9mm 1911? 18 degree grip angle. Possible less finicky? Just as shootable?

 

[FOS373]

how would a SAO 9mm p229 compare to a 9mm 1911? 18 degree grip angle. Possible less finicky? Just as shootable?

Are you saying your 229 is finicky? While I don’t have a SAO 229, I have DA/SA’s (229s, 220, 226s, etc) and never found them finicky. They’ve always just run.

Since getting 1911s, I noticed that when I switch back to the Sig P22_ variants, I have to drive / push the front of the barrel down to get on target. The 1911s seem (to me) more natural to aim.

 

[Gribley]

No I was pondering the opposite. If a p229 might be less finicky than a 1911. I realize Form and others are saying theirs re reliable. Just seems like there’s a learning curve that the p229 might not have. The other thing I hadn’t considered is that the 1911 has a lower bore height.

 

[RockAndSage]

how would a SAO 9mm p229 compare to a 9mm 1911? 18 degree grip angle. Possible less finicky? Just as shootable?

Different ballparks, not just as shootable.

But...still very shootable.

The newest variant in that category, the Sig 226 X-Carry Legion, is probably the best all-around EDC gun Sig's ever made. It's almost a modernized and updated blend of the best features of several of their best guns. They trimmed it down to somewhere around the footprint of a 228, so it's not as long as the normal 226s, and not as fat, chonky, and top-heavy as the 229s. Plus a bunch of modernization and general ergonomics updates in terms of being optics-ready, light rail, front-slide serrations, beavertail, excellent grips, etc. It's a genuinely outstanding gun. About the only criticism I'd have of it, generally speaking, is the higher bore-axis that comes with that family of guns.

Last year I was in the market again for a handgun, and gave a lot of consideration to the 229 Legion SAO in 9mm. I passed because of how top-heavy it still was. The 226 X-Carry Legion trimmed off all that 229 fat, and had it been out last year there's a high likelihood I would have gone with it.

The gun I did choose was the Dan Wesson DWX Compact - it's another genuinely outstanding gun. Mine has over 18,000 rounds on it, and the only problems have been a weakening extractor spring.

About 6 months later I picked up a Staccato C, based on the recommendation of this thread's OP, Form. Had I done that first, I wouldn't have ever gotten the DWXc, and I genuinely love that gun. But the Staccato C's a better EDC/all-around gun, with the same overall footprint.

All that said, if I were to get a new EDC 9mm to try out, the 226 X-Carry Legion is absolutely at the top of the list for anything less than $1500. The next step up in cost would be one of the commander-sized Kimber 2k11 variants. Beyond that, an Ed Brown Evo, which is about the only single-stack that's really interesting to me at the moment.

If you're wanting a super reliable, no-fuss EDC gun with no learning curve, a cheap 1911 isn't it. If you're ready to up your handgunning game though, and put a lot of rounds on one, nothing's going to shoot better for you. But that doesn't mean other options are "bad" - you just need to know their limitations, and your own.

 

[Lonewolf72]

View attachment 1048551
I couldn't resist the prices on these Springfield Armory "Vault" (demo) guns, and was able to snag this Emissary 9mm 1911 for $599! So my urge to pickup a 1911/2011 should be quelled for now. Anyone interested in the vault guns should check them out at Florida Gun Exchange or GunBuyer.

Finally got the Emissary to the range today. So far so good...no hiccups in the first couple hundred rounds. VERY accurate and LOW recoil. Hate the rear U-notch sight. Might switch over to a front fiber optic and rear square-notch sight set. And now that it shows potential reliability, time to get some extra Mec-Gars and an OWB holster.

 

[Dobermann]

All that said, if I were to get a new EDC 9mm to try out, the 226 X-Carry Legion is absolutely at the top of the list for anything less than $1500. The next step up in cost would be one of the commander-sized Kimber 2k11 variants.

Or perhaps a Bul? Not sure what their prices are stateside. (And hoping to not come across as a Bul shill; they're just affordable and reliable, best as I can tell from others with more rounds on them than me.)

 

[kad11]

Finally got the Emissary to the range today. So far so good...no hiccups in the first couple hundred rounds. VERY accurate and LOW recoil. Hate the rear U-notch sight. Might switch over to a front fiber optic and rear square-notch sight set. And now that it shows potential reliability, time to get some extra Mec-Gars and an OWB holster.

Are you planning to go with sights from Harrison?

 

[timbernomad]

What are people thinking about Kimber 1911's these days? The basic single stack models. The hubbub on youtube is that they aren't having the old issues they used to have, but for all I know that's all just PR.

 

[RockAndSage]

Or perhaps a Bul? Not sure what their prices are stateside. (And hoping to not come across as a Bul shill; they're just affordable and reliable, best as I can tell from others with more rounds on them than me.)

Oh, you're totally a Bul shill, but that's okay, because they're great guns. If they had an external extractor, I'd jump all over one.

 

[Lonewolf72]

Are you planning to go with sights from Harrison?

I had not put much thought into it yet. I just have an idea of what I'd prefer. I suppose I could go with Harrison, but was thinking I might try Dawson Precision. Either way, I could probably get by with just swapping out the rear sight, as the front tritium is sufficient. But I wear glasses and my eyesight isn't what it used to be, so I'll probably go for a fiber optic front sight.

 

[TradLife406]

What are people thinking about Kimber 1911's these days? The basic single stack models. The hubbub on youtube is that they aren't having the old issues they used to have, but for all I know that's all just PR.

The 2k11 has been great for me! Honestly want a C or K.

 

[CaptArab]

I picked up a used Dan Wesson Pointman-9 bone stock with factory fiber optic sights. What a blast to shoot. Reminded me of being a kid with my ruger mark 2.

Makes me feel a bit silly spending > 3k for the C24/RCR.

Starting to think I could get by well enough with just 1911s and Glocks. The double stack stuff in the middle is in jeopardy. Time will tell.

 

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[RockAndSage]

I picked up a used Dan Wesson Pointman-9 bone stock with factory fiber optic sights. What a blast to shoot. Reminded me of being a kid with my ruger mark 2.

Makes me feel a bit silly spending > 3k for the C24/RCR.

Starting to think I could get by well enough with just 1911s and Glocks. The double stack stuff in the middle is in jeopardy. Time will tell.

Pics man! If you don't mind sharing, how much did you get the used Pointman for?

 

[CaptArab]

It was under $1300 with the background check and all. I hit the jackpot on this one, previous owner is a highly competent smith and comp shooter that fitted an EGW extractor. It stacks brass it neat little piles, I've never seen anything like it in a pistol.

I've owned a few Wilson's and a Les Baer but this is my first 9mm. I'm not seeing anything I'd pay more for with those "semi customs". I'll probably throw a chen si on it and some wood caliber dark walnuts but I'm totally happy as-is.

I'm totally content with the ignition might bring the pull up a hair around 3.5-4 is a touch light for me right now but I won't be swapping any parts.

 

[RockAndSage]

It was under $1300 with the background check and all. I hit the jackpot on this one, previous owner is a highly competent smith and comp shooter that fitted an EGW extractor. It stacks brass it neat little piles, I've never seen anything like it in a pistol.

I've owned a few Wilson's and a Les Baer but this is my first 9mm. I'm not seeing anything I'd pay more for with those "semi customs". I'll probably throw a chen si on it and some wood caliber dark walnuts but I'm totally happy as-is.

I'm totally content with the ignition might bring the pull up a hair around 3.5-4 is a touch light for me right now but I won't be swapping any parts.
View attachment 1070900

Man, jackpot is right, that's a fantastic score. Especially at $1300 all-in. Beautiful gun.

 

[Dobermann]

Oh, you're totally a Bul shill, but that's okay, because they're great guns. If they had an external extractor, I'd jump all over one.

Have you tried an S&W 1911 with the external extractor?

(Any why an external extractor for you? I seem to recall Sweeney thought internal vs external was a wash in terms of reliability, and 'traditionalists' seem to favor the internal ... so curious about your preference for one.)

 

[fisherman983]

I made the mistake of checking out the fancy pistol case at my LGS. Fondled a Stac XC, P, HD P4, DWX, DWX Compact, Valor, CZ TS2, Kimber DS Warrior, maybe one or two others.

First off, I don't know what black magic Staccato is using, but the XC is hands down the best feeling pistol I've ever held. Action, sights, trigger, controls, all perfect and incredibly intuitive. The first time I pointed it my sights were perfectly aligned, and picking it up a few times the grip was incredibly consistent. There are enough reference points that you just know right away your hand is in the right place.

The DWX was a close second. But overall that pistol feels much less practical than the XC. Heavier, longer, and with gaudy red anodized grips and mag bases it felt like explicitly a range toy.

I was surprised that I did not love the single stack "classic" 1911s as much. The grip felt longer front to back, and I could feel all the transitions from metal to grip panel to metal, and the grip safety. It was quite a bit more noticeable than the XC, and the long, narrow, round grip felt hard to index properly, like I didn't know that I had gripped it in the right place with as much certainty.

Triggers were all good to excellent, but the Stac HD and TS2 were noticeably not as good as some of the others.

Now I'm really torn, because the price point of the XC is ridiculous, but I also don't want to spend 2k and be underwhelmed.

I did something similar and ended up buying a used XC with an sro at a price i couldn't pass up. Its a range toy for me and im okay with it. I've only put a few mags of ammo through it but just got a case of ammo to play with.
The few rounds I've put thru it, make my glock19 with ramjet and my 365 axg legion feel like garbage and if be more accurate with them just throwing the whole pistol.
The xc is by far more accurate and its not even close. Buy one you wont regret it at all.
And if you cant stomach the price you can always sell it for almost what you paid.

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

 

[RussDXT]

My xc is my favorite pistol by far. It’s like cheating.

 

[RockAndSage]

Have you tried an S&W 1911 with the external extractor?

Ah, I'd totally forgotten about them, it's been a long time since I've seen one. But I'd absolutely be game.

The new Kimber Next Generation 1911s have external extractors too, and those might be interesting to try.

(Any why an external extractor for you? I seem to recall Sweeney thought internal vs external was a wash in terms of reliability, and 'traditionalists' seem to favor the internal ... so curious about your preference for one.)

It adds to the complexity of keeping a 1911 in top reliability, especially for someone without some degree of armorer training or mentorship on it. Yes, it can be done just fine. No, it's not that hard. But it's a failure point that craps out earlier than alternatives, and requires more to replace properly. And, when fitting and replacing a new one, it can take hundreds of rounds of proofing just to uncover that it's not quite right.

At least, that's my experience with .45s. I've never fitted and tuned a 9mm 1911 extractor. And to be fair, I am hearing that it's less challenging to do right with 9mms.

The thing about internal extractors, is that there are a lot more little things than can go wrong, or just add complexity to the part replacement. Most importantly is that there is a tremendously wide variance in extractor quality by manufacturer - not just dimensions, but in metallurgy and heat treating as well. They need to have high-endurance spring-steel properties, and slight geometry variances can have an enormous impact on cycling reliability - on feeding especially. The cartridge rim is supposed to slip up underneath and behind the extractor, not snap over like on an AR bolt or other push-feed design. But if that geometry's not right then things bind, and you get an FTF. If the recoil and mainspring aren't tuned properly, you see a lot more of the cartridge chambering in different ways that require the extractor to snap over the case rim, hence the need for spring-steel properties. Without that, the extractors start getting out of tune and fail from those snap-overs, sometimes fairly quickly.

A lot of this got uncovered once slow-mo cameras got used in diagnosing some of these problems. The irony is that JMB spec'd the 1911 extractor to have very specific spring-steel properties, which got lost/forgotten/disregarded by parts makers by the 1980s and 90s. I'm fairly certain a lot of the "1911s ain't reliable" nonsense can be chalked up to improper extractors, along with overly tight-fitted match-grade custom guns, and the loss of whale oil as a lubricant by the 1970s. Because when you get a properly-made and fitted extractor (original GI surplus, C&S's discontinued ones, or evidently Wilson's Bulletproof), and don't have stupid-tight handfitted guns focusing on accuracy over reliability, and use a good modern lubricant, 95% of 1911 reliability problems just disappear. Add in good mags and good ammo, and modern precision machining, and we get the unbelievably reliable 1911s we're seeing in this new golden age of them.

All that said, the bottom line for me in internal extractors though, is that they add no functional benefit over external ones, they generally don't hold up as long, there's a wide variance in replacement-part quality, and they require knowledge, skill, experience, and additional time, money, and ammo to deal with properly.

To be fair, almost none of this matters until you're shooting in volume. But if someone's going to put more than a few thousand rounds out of a 1911 over time, they need a higher level of operator knowledge in how to replace these parts properly - especially in how to diagnose what various malfunctions mean.