1911’s in general, 9mm versions specifically

[Dobermann]

Thank you. The above is incredibly helpful. You have saved me time (again).

Already started down that path with a gun[dot]deals search, and the one pre-2026 I searched yielded prices at or above the BA website list. Given the above numbers, one would probably need to do a spreadsheet. That's now on my agenda for tomorrow.

Thank you and @id_jon. I ran across a Ben interview today. Topic was something negative he had said about Staccato, then some some marketing talk. I tuned out to that one, but will look again tomorrow.

Added to the list. More training is definitely in order.

Thanks. I may see if I can find a US large seller of Bul and inquire. (Just to see if that same approach might work here. For others. Really.)

Chances are also good that I'm not smart enough to know a difference. I'm thinking that if I waited this long for the C, I may be on a slower pace of buying the next one. (I can dream, right?)

Yeah. No chance we venture out. I try to mitigate my chances of effing myself up (after years of doing the opposite). And - this is Mrs. fwafwow -

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Some quick replies / notes / context:

Bul can apparently be hard to get in the US at times, which might explain higher prices from some opportunists. Others say that if just order from Bul US directly, it's straightforward. Not sure - one of the 1911 forums might offer more info.

Re Ben and Joel: Ben's videos are a mix of training tips, reviews, and industry drama. Know that he doesn't get paid by anyone and likes to stir things up - you just need to focus on the technical content. But unlike paid guntubers, he puts thousands of rounds through pistols before commenting on them in any detail.

Both Ben and Joel's channels cover some basics, while other things assume a certain level of knowledge. If you look through their back catalogues, though, you can find a few entire classes - their take is that not everyone can attend, and they're happy for people to see what they're saying first.

For me, the main thing is that they're both good shooters, have nothing to prove, and just put out solid advice that I've found has made a difference.

Their books give a lot of drills you can train at home and then verify on the range. Latest one is here: https://www.amazon.com/Baseline-Dryfire-Guide-Red-Mastery/dp/B0G48V1JJ2/ref=sr_1_1

Don't be put off by 'red dot' in the title - Ben has a video where he explains that this was just responding to the fact that almost everyone who attends their class uses one. Their teaching method is fairly similar for irons, as they're target-focussed.


PS Mrs fwafwow is ... younger than I expected!

 

[Dobermann]

Spreadsheet in process. Pre-2026 models are rare as hens’ teeth, and at list where found. Looks like Blackstone may be the primary US dealer.

 

[fwafwow]

I’m being good and watching reality tv with Mrs fwafwow and our daughter. But -

I’ve scoured online new sales and emailed Blackstone about pre-orders. For the rest of the members reading this thread.

Some quick replies / notes / context:

Bul can apparently be hard to get in the US at times, which might explain higher prices from some opportunists. Others say that if just order from Bul US directly, it's straightforward. Not sure - one of the 1911 forums might offer more info.

Good suggestion.

Re Ben and Joel: Ben's videos are a mix of training tips, reviews, and industry drama. Know that he doesn't get paid by anyone and likes to stir things up - you just need to focus on the technical content. But unlike paid guntubers, he puts thousands of rounds through pistols before commenting on them in any detail.

Both Ben and Joel's channels cover some basics, while other things assume a certain level of knowledge. If you look through their back catalogues, though, you can find a few entire classes - their take is that not everyone can attend, and they're happy for people to see what they're saying first.

For me, the main thing is that they're both good shooters, have nothing to prove, and just put out solid advice that I've found has made a difference.

Excellent.

Their books give a lot of drills you can train at home and then verify on the range. Latest one is here: https://www.amazon.com/Baseline-Dryfire-Guide-Red-Mastery/dp/B0G48V1JJ2/ref=sr_1_1

Don't be put off by 'red dot' in the title - Ben has a video where he explains that this was just responding to the fact that almost everyone who attends their class uses one. Their teaching method is fairly similar for irons, as they're target-focussed.

Book inbound

PS Mrs fwafwow is ... younger than I expected!

That’s her in spirit. She cray cray about weather.

 

[RockAndSage]

Topic was something negative he had said about Staccato,

Keep this in mind about the Staccatos vs everything else, when criticized by someone deep into the gaming/competition/2011-flex world: you can't compare a Dakkar Rally car to a Lamborghini.

The thing that sold me on the Staccato C was Form's mention of it going something like 5000+ mean-rounds between failure (MRBF) in formal testing. That's insane, for almost any gun, but especially for a 1911/2011. I've already got about 3-4k on mine, on one application of lube, no cleaning, no refresh of the lube, and not a single hiccup of any kind.

This thing would have been an absolute grail-gun for me even just 5-8 years ago. And in terms of field use, I'm just not sure there could be anything better if you're a serious and capable handgunner. It really is hard to overstate just how difficult it used to be to get a 1911 stone-cold reliable, especially over 1000s of rounds and hard-use field realities. And the more high-performance you wanted it, the less durability and MRBF reliability you got. But we're in a different world now, and it really is remarkable.

But you can't fairly compare a Staccato C to the higher-end race guns. It's apples and oranges. If a Glock was a Tacoma, the Staccato C is that high-performance, ultra-endurance Dakkar Rally car, that will scream right through the worst conditions you can throw at it, day and night, relentlessly.

The guns those gamer guys are comparing it to? Those are Lambo-guns. Flatter shooting, faster shooting, freakishly good triggers. But they're generally dog$h*t in the dirt. Track use only.

I couldn't be happier that I jumped on this C while I could.

 

[Dobermann]

Keep this in mind about the Staccatos vs everything else, when criticized by someone deep into the gaming/competition/2011-flex world: you can't compare a Dakkar Rally car to a Lamborghini.

The thing that sold me on the Staccato C was Form's mention of it going something like 5000+ mean-rounds between failure (MRBF) in formal testing. That's insane, for almost any gun, but especially for a 1911/2011. I've already got about 3-4k on mine, on one application of lube, no cleaning, no refresh of the lube, and not a single hiccup of any kind.

This thing would have been an absolute grail-gun for me even just 5-8 years ago. And in terms of field use, I'm just not sure there could be anything better if you're a serious and capable handgunner. It really is hard to overstate just how difficult it used to be to get a 1911 stone-cold reliable, especially over 1000s of rounds and hard-use field realities. And the more high-performance you wanted it, the less durability and MRBF reliability you got. But we're in a different world now, and it really is remarkable.

But you can't fairly compare a Staccato C to the higher-end race guns. It's apples and oranges. If a Glock was a Tacoma, the Staccato C is that high-performance, ultra-endurance Dakkar Rally car, that will scream right through the worst conditions you can throw at it, day and night, relentlessly.

The guns those gamer guys are comparing it to? Those are Lambo-guns. Flatter shooting, faster shooting, freakishly good triggers. But they're generally dog$h*t in the dirt. Track use only.

I couldn't be happier that I jumped on this C while I could.

I get all of the above as general points ... but seeing as you quoted @fwafwow referencing Ben ... yes, Ben has Atlases. But he's also sung the praises of the Kimber 2K11 ... and owns a lot of Staccatos.

He also said that most of his shooting this year will likely be with a Glock - probably because that's what most of the agencies he trains uses. (And know also that Hwansik recently shot and won a match with a Glock, just to show that it could be done.)

I think the main points he raises are a combination of Staccatos being fairly expensive for what they are, not being hugely better in performance than other offerings, and having had a few significant failures (in his high use).

But he's also recently used their stellar warranty, and gave them kudos for that.

So in this (case of specifically to Ben, not the wider matter of the pros and cons of Staccatos), I think the metaphor is less about the kind of car being compared, but what kind of driver is doing the comparison.

 

[RockAndSage]

I think the metaphor is less about the kind of car being compared, but what kind of driver is doing the comparison.

That's largely true - and his criticisms of it aren't coming from an EDC, duty, or field use perspective. They're coming from a gaming perspective.

I should have made a more explicit point about this in that last post, which was at the core of what I was trying to get at: people need to make their 1911/2011 decisions based on their intended use and the desired performance of that tool.

That's why the car analogy - you don't take a Lambo across the Sahel. A champion gamer's criticism of the Staccato needs to be understood as a comparison between gamer guns for gaming purposes - not high-performance duty purposes. For sure, he could run a Glock to a championship - but he's not running one of his Atlases in a side-by-side across desert sands or a two-track for days and needing instant, zero-warning stone-cold reliability with lives on the line. If he's criticizing a Staccato - in his context, you can probably take it as expert opinion and to listen closely. But outside that lane, for a different application, it's a different story.

If someone wants a tinker toy, or to dip their toes into the 1911 world without blowing a lot of cash, or they want a race gun, or they want a legit hard-use, high-performance 1911/2011 - it's important to know that these guns are just not interchangeable that way. And that any criticism of one needs to be understood in the context of that individual's reality.

 

[RockAndSage]

I think the main points he raises are a combination of Staccatos being fairly expensive for what they are, not being hugely better in performance than other offerings,

Let's put it this way: I would absolutely pay a $2000 premium over a 2k11, or even the same price as an Atlas, for a 2011 that I could toss in the mud and shoot without cleaning, or would shoot reliably at -30F, especially with the durability of it doing that after already having 20k or 30k rounds on it. Staccato prices aren't "fairly expensive" for duty high-performance. But they are fairly expensive compared to a 2k11 for gaming performance.

 

[Dobermann]

@RockAndSage: I think we're likely to agree on most of this in terms of application and the importance of reliability. In terms of Ben's comments, a few small clarifications:

First, while some criticism he has leveled might have been from a competition use perspective, I think it's also important to remember that he trains a lot of agencies, some of whom are using Staccatos, and he also makes comments with 'regular' shooters in mind.

Second, Ben's not competing much these days - just doing his own high-round count training and instructing others. So I think many of his comments of the last year have had something of a wider point of view.

Third, I think it's important to remember that Ben has had a couple of failures/breakages on Staccatos.

Part of his beef appears to also be with the attitude of some at the company, and their marketing ... he can drag that into his discussions.

But again, I'm with you on reliability ... would be interesting to see a head-to-head comparison of a Staccato, 2K11, and Bul SAS, if only to see what the differences would be and when the failure points would occur for each.

 

[RockAndSage]

would be interesting to see a head-to-head comparison of a Staccato, 2K11, and Bul SAS, if only to see what the differences would be and when the failure points would occur for each.

That would be an awesome comparison to see done. While I haven't shot one yet, given the results high-volume shooters are getting with the 2k11 seem to be fairly uniformly great (except for the optics plate), I wouldn't be surprised in the 2k11 did well. It definitely does great at the range. The Buls are interesting, in that they seem to be a bit of a sleeper - guys who experience them seem to love them, but they're not getting a lot of hype, it seems.

 

[Moccasin]

If the COA is going to be made widely available, here's hoping Dawson make a range of plates for it.

Amazing how many other platforms don't have plates for the Acro.

I called both Staccato and Dawson last week and neither reported any plans for a COA to C adapter.

 

[fwafwow]

That would be an awesome comparison to see done. While I haven't shot one yet, given the results high-volume shooters are getting with the 2k11 seem to be fairly uniformly great (except for the optics plate), I wouldn't be surprised in the 2k11 did well. It definitely does great at the range. The Buls are interesting, in that they seem to be a bit of a sleeper - guys who experience them seem to love them, but they're not getting a lot of hype, it seems.

I’d definitely watch or read this comparison. Maybe throw in the new Kimber DS Warrior?

 

[RockAndSage]

I’d definitely watch or read this comparison. Maybe throw in the new Kimber DS Warrior?

Definitely. Along with Kimber's "Next Gen" 1911s, with the external extractors. I personally have zero interest in a 1911/2011 with an internal extractor, but I would very much like to see how well high-quality ones do side-by-side against those with external extractors, especially from the same company like Kimber.

 

[lak2004]

https://palmettostatearmory.com/tisas-usa-1911-night-stalker-sf-9mm-5-10rd-pistol-platinum-gray.html

Possible to get into a 1911 for decent price or save up and spend more on say a MAC or BUL?

I'm in CO so we have dumbass mag limits of 15rds, so most of the DS pistols are tough for me to get.

 

[BjornF16]

Ok. There was probably 40 Springfield pistols alone with COA’s at SHOT. They may not be able to be in hand today, but they are coming.

The TRP will get a COA slide cut...I seriously doubt they will offer an AOS adapter for those of us with TRP AOS

 

[Nine Banger]

It's a lil' baby.

 

[tikkashooter88]

Just picked up this MAC 9 DS non-comp last week and got some parts in to create this abomination! I snagged it for $715 shipped.

Found a used Stac P grip, magwell, grip safety, mag release, mainspring housing, and trigger for $200(Springfield Prodigy grip, mag release and MSH for $50 would have been a better value) because the original texture was… well it wasn’t textured, I’ll put it that way. Also got this rmr07 used for $275. We’re wheelin and dealin baby!

Already broke it down, lightly sanded(mostly just got rid of high spots) and polished all the internals, as well as the frame rails. Slightly beveled and rounded the areas on the bottom of slide that were hanging on the disconnector, lubed it up and racked it a whole shit ton while watching TV. I suspect the extractor will need some tuning because it wouldn’t let go of a round no matter how much I shook the slide, and it feels pretty heavily sprung but gonna put 500 rounds through it before anything else. I can’t make it to the range until next week, but will report back with thoughts and findings.

Ordered the same gun this weekend for $770 shipped.

I'm a newb at 1911/2011 so any good videos or tutorials recommended for doing some at home tuning?

 

[RockAndSage]

Ordered the same gun this weekend for $770 shipped.

I'm a newb at 1911/2011 so any good videos or tutorials recommended for doing some at home tuning?

Atlas Gunworks has some really good YouTube videos, and they're one of the more premium high-performance 2011 companies. A good middle-ground between gunsmith-level stuff, vs intro stuff. Just good, technical, how-to videos on things like triggers, tuning sear-springs, etc.

 

[TitsMcGee]

I'm a newb at 1911/2011 so any good videos or tutorials recommended for doing some at home tuning?

Best practice would be to throw some CLP on it, then go to the range and shoot at least 200 rounds first to check for any clear causes of malfunctions, or areas of improvement. Once you're home strip it down and look for anywhere the finish is wearing to see exactly what needs some more sanding/polishing. Gives you a good baseline idea anyways.

Here's a link to my personal compilations of 2011 tuning videos. It's a Youtube playlist mostly comprised of Engineer Armory, and Atlas Gun Works videos. The Engineer Armory channel goes into super deep-dive technical explanations, following TDP spec sheets and tolerances. He is an engineer by trade. His channel covers the why, and how. Atlas Gun works channel is more focused on the how. Their camera angles can kind of suck at showcasing what they're talking about sometimes.

I can't recommend the "Polishing firearm components for Beginners" video in that playlist enough. It's pretty lengthy but well worth it. The man even explains the science behind what friction is. I watched and followed along the entire video. The trigger, as well as disconnector hang up, felt significantly better afterwards. This video also helped a lot with the Turkish 2011 trademark disco hang-up. You can send in your MAC to those guys and they'll do everything for you for around $400 I think. But where's the fun in that?

Also I would call Springfield customer service and have them draft you up an invoice for a Prodigy grip, Mainspring Housing, and Mag Release for ~$50. If you tell them you're swapping the grip on a MAC 9 they should get you what you need. Dawson, and EGW make inexpensive magwells if you want. I'm going to the range this week and can report back with any insights and findings of how mine is after some light work.

 

[fwafwow]

FWIW/FYI - I went with the TT Gunleather Reinforced IWB (and belt). Tim responded the same day, twice, to my email questions. And the turnaround time is roughly 5 weeks compared to 50 for Milt Sparks. And it was less expensive.

 

[Bluumoon]

FWIW/FYI - I went with the TY Gunleather Reinforced IWB (and belt). Tim responded the same day, twice, to my email questions. And the turnaround time is roughly 5 weeks compared to 50 for Milt Sparks. And it was less expensive.

Something to a nice leather belt... Depending on your build you may find that the buckle sticks way out w appendix carry, the Tenicor belt is worthy to try.