143 ELD-X blew up on the shoulder?

[Ucsdryder]

I've been around here long enough to know that it's not wise to make uneducated bold claims, HOWEVEVER - this happened to be pretty well documented by a buddy of mine. I know "it just doesn't happen", but these photos and what he told me are extremely perplexing. @Formidilosus I'd love to hear your input or synopsis on the matter.

Shot situation - mature blacktail buck, broadside shot 140 yards, 6.5 Creedmoor, factory Precision Hunter 143 ELD-X. Knocked the buck down, buck got up at 30 yards and he shot him in the back of the head. He says absolutely no vegetation or anything the bullet could have contacted to start initiating expansion prior to impact, clear line of sight and the impact was at POA. He found the jacket/core fragments in the wound cavity on the shoulder, from his inspection nothing notably penetrated through the rib meat and into the cavity.

The bullet obviously hit something at adequate velocity to cause it to upset, but if it were in between him and the target it wasn't enough to cause it to deviate off course. What say you?

View attachment 781822
View attachment 781824
View attachment 781823

I saw an antelope shot at 90 yards this year with a 6.5cm and 143eldx. I told my buddy when we walked up, “look at that exit”. He said, that’s the entrance! It absolutely exploded on the shoulder. This was in grasslands, nothing between the antelope and shooter. It made it into the cavity, but just a few pieces of shrapnel.

Nothing is for certain, but I’d bet on a MD and definitely an elk, the shrapnel wouldn’t have made it into the cavity. It was 3-4 pin holes. Buck was quartering toward the shooter.

 

[KenLee]

I saw an antelope shot at 90 yards this year with a 6.5cm and 143eldx. I told my buddy when we walked up, “look at that exit”. He said, that’s the entrance! It absolutely exploded on the shoulder. This was in grasslands, nothing between the antelope and shooter. It made it into the cavity, but just a few pieces of shrapnel.

Nothing is for certain, but I’d bet on a MD and definitely an elk, the shrapnel wouldn’t have made it into the cavity. It was 3-4 pin holes. Buck was quartering toward the shooter.

Just shoot em in the head or neck at 90 and stay off the quartering shoulder. Tipped soft bullet and big angle on the shoulder invites trouble. Tip likes to do the boot scoot boogie.
I did it at steep angle on a sternum 20 years ago with 270 sst 130 gr. Deer hopped up and ran like a scalded dog and I had to anchor him. Learned my lesson.

 

[Ucsdryder]

It wasn’t a point of shoulder shot. If it passed through, it would have hit on side shoulder and exited 4-5” behind shoulder on off side. Shot was straight up the leg.

Just shoot em in the head or neck at 90 and stay off the quartering shoulder. Tipped soft bullet and big angle on the shoulder invites trouble. Tip likes to do the boot scoot boogie.
I did it at steep angle on a sternum 20 years ago with 270 sst 130 gr. Deer hopped up and ran like a scalded dog and I had to anchor him. Learned my lesson.

 

[KenLee]

It wasn’t a point of shoulder shot. If it passed through, it would have hit on side shoulder and exited 4-5” behind shoulder on off side. Shot was straight up the leg.

Point of shoulder is usually better to keep tip from scooting, but yeah I was picturing more of an angle.

 

[waspocrew]

Forgetting to return to zero would’ve resulted in a miss high or spined animal, not a ricochet and hit (which seems extremely unlikely).

None of us were there, we don’t have video, so it’s all just speculation. But to say - “had to have hit another animal first”, “must have hit a branch to open”, or “hit low in dirt to ricochet” appears to be grasping at straws.

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Forgetting to return to zero would’ve resulted in a miss high or spined animal, not a ricochet and hit (which seems extremely unlikely).

None of us were there, we don’t have video, so it’s all just speculation. But to say - “had to have hit another animal first”, “must have hit a branch to open”, or “hit low in dirt to ricochet” appears to be grasping at straws.

Not forgetting to return to zero, forgetting that it was returned to zero and returning it another full revolution (assuming no zero stop). So hitting low.

 

[5811]

I'm new to this, so I've never actually seen it and this might be a dumb question, but what about bullets coming apart in flight? Does anything make it to the target? Does it always happen at the muzzle or could it happen right before impact in some anomalous case?

 

[Ucsdryder]

Forgetting to return to zero would’ve resulted in a miss high or spined animal, not a ricochet and hit (which seems extremely unlikely).

None of us were there, we don’t have video, so it’s all just speculation. But to say - “had to have hit another animal first”, “must have hit a branch to open”, or “hit low in dirt to ricochet” appears to be grasping at straws.

I shoot target bullets and have for a while, so this doesn’t come from a hater… but I agree at the grasping at straws. This thread doesn’t fit the narrative currently being pushed on here.

On a side not my wife hammered a buck with “her” 7saum shooting 180 eldms. Like it always seems to do, the exit was a golf ball sized hole after punching a hole in the onside shoulder. Those 180s are bad medicine.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

I shoot target bullets and have for a while, so this doesn’t come from a hater… but I agree at the grasping at straws. This thread doesn’t fit the narrative currently being pushed on here.

I think people are just trying to make sense of this third party report of something that seems, on its face, almost impossible.

Let's just chalk it up to, bullets do weird things sometimes.

 

[waspocrew]

Not forgetting to return to zero, forgetting that it was returned to zero and returning it another full revolution (assuming no zero stop). So hitting low.

Sure, maybe.

But hitting low and then causing a ricochet that hits the intended POA? Again, anything is possible - but I'd say it's pretty low odds of that actually happening.

 

[HighUintas]

Based on what was recovered of the bullet, it is most likely that it was a squib load.

Over the years, I've removed a remarkable amount of bullets from barrels. Some factory ammunition, some, most, handloads that didn't get enough powder or any at all. Squibs are a thing.

All things being equal, that is the most plausible explanation. I've seen high speed camera studies on bullet deflection and barrier impacts. It takes more than a branch to initiate meaningful upset based on those findings. Although a small deflection can initiate tumbling, but the recovered bullet says otherwise.

Just my thoughts.

Jeremy

Are you saying you think there was a bullet in his barrel from a squib load and then he fired a round at this deer causing the lodged bullet to come out and one of those bullets hit the deer at his POA?

 

[Wapiti1]

Are you saying you think there was a bullet in his barrel from a squib load and then he fired a round at this deer causing the lodged bullet to come out and one of those bullets hit the deer at his POA?

Uh…no. I’m saying that cartridge was a squib. Low velocity is a likely answer that fits all data, if you take it all at face value.

My example was simply to say that it happens and isn’t super rare.

Jeremy

 

[pbroski]

I shoot target bullets and have for a while, so this doesn’t come from a hater… but I agree at the grasping at straws. This thread doesn’t fit the narrative currently being pushed on here.

On a side not my wife hammered a buck with “her” 7saum shooting 180 eldms. Like it always seems to do, the exit was a golf ball sized hole after punching a hole in the onside shoulder. Those 180s are bad medicine.

But wouldn't 143 eld-x do the same thing? It didn't. So why not? Not grasping at straws. Trying to find out what happened.

 

[House21]

I had a ricochet this year with a 175gr eldx, didn’t see then branch when I shot, but I saw it crack and drop after the shot. Deer was at roughly 150 yards and hit the branch about 30 yards in front of the deer. Was aiming for behind the shoulder, hit the branch and hit her in the neck. I’m assuming the bullet tumbled because you could stick your entire fist through the hole it left.

I think the guy would have had to hit something significant for it to only penetrate that far with that much expansion, even a tumbling bullet should have made it into the chest cavity, but that bullet doesn’t look like it tumbled at all.

Being that it is a bullet and just another piece that can fail, anything’s possible. I’ve shot a few animals and when I’ve gotten up to them I can’t explain what happened, but things can and will happen. Unfortunately no one will ever know exactly what happened, but I wouldn’t let it deter him from using them again

 

[bergie]

In my youth I shot a .22 LR at a coyote that was standing in about 1" of water. The distance was somewhere on the order of 150-200 yards. I had no range finder but even if I did would have not known anything about holdover, so I put the open sights on the dog and pulled the trigger. My buddy standing next to me and I saw the same thing. We watched the bullet impact the water substantially in front of the dog, with the following moment the dog fell over dead. Upon inspection the bullet hit it directly in the head after ricocheting.

No I don't have full necropsy pictures, no I have no idea what bullet was actually fired, hell I can't even tell you the model of .22 I was using. I know water and dirt probably don't behave the same, so this is just to show that yes it could be possible for a bullet to strike way low and hit somewhere close to the point of aim.

 

[Jtb.kfd]

I'm new to this, so I've never actually seen it and this might be a dumb question, but what about bullets coming apart in flight? Does anything make it to the target? Does it always happen at the muzzle or could it happen right before impact in some anomalous case?

I have had various 22cal bullets come apart in flight before hitting paper targets but they have been reloads and from calibers/loads exceeding 3700fps. Almost every instance of this was more than 20 years ago, bullets have come a long way since then.
I have also had “hunting” bullets explode on animals from elk to deer with a weight retention of the largest recoverable chunk being less than 20% from various bullet brands. While every instance of this was surprising, I believe the failure was a velocity issue being too high at the distance for that specific bullet. And, in every instance multiple fragments entered the chest cavity resulting in mush for vitals and a quick kill.
I have reloaded ELDX bullets in various calibers and my family has taken several deer with them with zero issue. Lots and lots of coyotes as well. It is our go to hunting bullet now so the OP is interesting and surprising to me. I have also seen enough stuff happen over the years that just didn’t make sense to not be too surprised it happened either.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Was he prone?
Was it raining, and/or might he have had standing water in the bore (does he not tape over the muzzle)

It looks like impact was from an expanded bullet moving much slower than expected, shooting through dirt or water could have created that scenario.

 

[Choupique]

Upon inspection the bullet hit it directly in the head after ricocheting.

That's an awesome story. Of course it'd be a coyote and not the BOAL. Nobody ever gets that lucky on a BOAL.