0 or 20 Moa rail for hunting

[Rwolf]

I am rigging out a 300 win mag with a Zeiss V4 4-16x44. I do not see myself shooting out over 600-700 yds. Do I need a 20 moa rail?

 

[PredatorSlayer]

No, you shouldn’t.

 

[hereinaz]

No, but it won’t hurt either.

 

[kevin11mee]

No. I've shot 1,000 yards with my .300 win mag and a Zeiss V4 with plenty left to dial. You don't need a 20 MOA rail.

 

[JjamesIII]

I’d get one because it wouldn’t hurt to have the ability to reach out further for practice. If you’re absolutely certain you will never see a target beyond 1k, then don’t. For hunting, you wouldn’t ever need it.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Consider it a low cost band aid if there’s not enough usable elevation with your scope.

 

[Go West Old Man]

@Rwolf , just curious as to what you decided? My 2cents based on many rounds sent and plenty of time spent behind both the V4 4-16x44 and the V4 6-24x50 is stick with a zero MOA rail. These scopes have 80 MOA of elevation travel 40 up & 40 down at factory zero stop, and depending on the reticle you choose even more MOA holdover if needed. That’s more than enough for not “shooting out over 600-700 yds”. Why complicate the equation with a 20 MOA rail. Believe me, your V4 is already capable of banging steel out to at least 1k and therefore at closer hunting ranges (keeping those ft/lbs up!) you’re good to go with a zero MOA rail.

 

[Rwolf]

I went with the zero moa rail. I know I’ll be able to dial up as far as I need hunting.

 

[Macintosh]

FWIW, my understanding is that the elevated rail serves two purposes. One to give enough elevation travel—but I cant think of more than tiny handful of dialable scopes that dont have enough elevation travel to reach 1000 yards, which even on my old school short action cartridge is less than 10 mils. The other reason is to keep the reticle travel nearer to the center of the adjustment range. I have been told this affects both optical quality as well as consistency of the erector movement. Perhaps someone with more scope knowledge than I have could weigh in on that.

 

[Gargoyle]

FWIW, my understanding is that the elevated rail serves two purposes. One to give enough elevation travel—but I cant think of more than tiny handful of dialable scopes that dont have enough elevation travel to reach 1000 yards, which even on my old school short action cartridge is less than 10 mils. The other reason is to keep the reticle travel nearer to the center of the adjustment range. I have been told this affects both optical quality as well as consistency of the erector movement. Perhaps someone with more scope knowledge than I have could weigh in on that.

You beat me to the optically centered clarity aspect.

 

[IdahoBeav]

FWIW, my understanding is that the elevated rail serves two purposes. One to give enough elevation travel—but I cant think of more than tiny handful of dialable scopes that dont have enough elevation travel to reach 1000 yards, which even on my old school short action cartridge is less than 10 mils. The other reason is to keep the reticle travel nearer to the center of the adjustment range. I have been told this affects both optical quality as well as consistency of the erector movement. Perhaps someone with more scope knowledge than I have could weigh in on that.

But doesn't that mean that your zero is located farther from the optical center? At what shooting distance is it best to have the crosshairs near the center- at the distance you shoot most, or at the farther distance where error is magnified.

Another thing to consider is cheek weld. A 20' rail will raise the eyepiece.

 

[Macintosh]

I dont know enough to say. My assumption was that scope height will work (or can be made to work through ring selection, etc) either way, but yes, obviously that could be a concern--my 20moa rail is about 1/8"-ish higher than the straight rail I have on another of the same action. my understanding was that you want the majority of your shooting to be within the mid-range of the erector travel, so zero doesnt necessarily need to be in the exact center, but you want most shooting including zero to be within a middle range...I dont know what that range is or how to determine it though. You could also argue that the longest shots are where you want the least optical distortion if that's an issue. Again, I am not the guy to ask, hopefully someone who knows more than "just enough to get themselves in trouble" can weigh in.
A 20moa rail should put a 100-yard zero inside the middle-half of the erector travel in a scope with 80moa of total travel (if you have 40moa of down-travel it's exactly half-way, so right at the bottom of the middle-half of the total travel), but it also puts 800-1000 yards 20moa closer to that middle. For my 7mm08 my 1000 yard solution is roughly 10mils, or just under 35 moa, so it almost maxes-out a scope with 80moa of travel. A 20moa rail keeps both the zero and the 1000-yard solution (and obviously everything in between) inside the middle 50% of the adjustment range of the scope. Again, I'd love for someone with more knowledge to come along and tell me where I'm misunderstanding this and how they make decisions about when to use an elevated rail and determining how much elevation they want, etc.

 

[huntsman22]

@Rwolf These scopes have 80 MOA of elevation travel 40 up & 40 down at factory zero stop, Why complicate the equation with a 20 MOA rail.

EVERYTHING below your zero is totally worthless. Please tell us how a 20moa rail will complicate this. It'll be funnier than heck......

 

[Go West Old Man]

EVERYTHING below your zero is totally worthless. Please tell us how a 20moa rail will complicate this. It'll be funnier than heck......

So you making fun of arithmetic challenged and disadvantaged persons? Like I said, just my 2 cents.

 

[Gargoyle]

So you making fun of arithmetic challenged and disadvantaged persons? Like I said, just my 2 cents.

60 up, 20 down. Better division.

 

[Go West Old Man]

60 up, 20 down. Better division.

I only got 10 fingers & 10 toes fer countin’

 

[Macintosh]

I only got 10 fingers & 10 toes fer countin’

Does this explain it better? a 20moa rail puts both your zero and any dialed solution out past 1000 yards with most centerfire rifles into the middle-half of the erector movement, where it is less susceptible to binding the windage movement, optical distortion, and the movement would be more consistent. With a flat rail you only actually get 40moa of useable travel, and at some point inside a distance many people shoot you will wind up using the extrene end of the erector movement, which has issues associated with it. in this case with a 20moa rail you actual get a theoretical 60moa of travel, and you dont wind up using that "red zone" until you are well past most rifles 1000yard solution. That's the story I've gotten anyway.

 

[Gargoyle]

Does this explain it better? a 20moa rail puts both your zero and any dialed solution out past 1000 yards with most centerfire rifles into the middle-half of the erector movement, where it is less susceptible to binding the windage movement, optical distortion, and the movement would be more consistent. That's the story I've gotten anyway.View attachment 504321

I was prepared to scribble something like this when waiting on my truck oil change, but my Dad walked in and that venture was over, LOL.

You have been told about the extreme ends of the erector positions. I have too, but I witnessed the side effects of distortion at max erector position. On my ELR 1 mile rig I had the elevation maxed to all travel minus .5 mil to total. while shooting 1760yds. The target had some slight distortion. It would take my eye a bit more/longer to resolve target detail than when I returned the travel back to center. So, it is definitely seen in practice, not just theory.

 

[Macintosh]

^^yes, and with a flat rail you go past the middle 50% of the erector travel in our example scope with a cartridge like my 7mm08 around 750yards, so you dont need to be shooting a mile to use this. Lots of people shoot that distance for practice, even if they arent hunting there.

What I would like to know is what the actual "red zone" is...is it the 25% on each end? Or 20%? or? That seems necessary to actually tell how much elevation a rail SHOULD have, correct?

 

[Gargoyle]

^^yes, and with a flat rail you go past the middle 50% of the erector travel in our example scope with a cartridge like my 7mm08 around 750yards, so you dont need to be shooting a mile to use this. Lots of people shoot that distance for practice, even if they arent hunting there.

What I would like to know is what the actual "red zone" is...is it the 25% on each end? Or 20%? or? That seems necessary to actually tell how much elevation a rail SHOULD have, correct?

I'd imagine that red zone would be contingent upon quality of the scope.