What's the Point

[TurkeyBowMaster]

What's the point of using the arrow point for aiming...I meant if you are going to use that for aiming then why not use a more consistent point in the form of a sight pin.

I just watched a video of a guy shooting and shooting quiet well shooting 3 under, and shooting a long arrow and using his arrow tip for a pin. I don't see the point of this other than to be able to say you are shooting bare bow yet you really are not. I use to complete and I see this is a method of shooting sights with barebow and I believe it is primarily a way developed to compete and beat the instinctive shooters, but when it comes to purely hunting, instinctive is far better.

I don't want to insult those who have mastered these methods. I just want to pump the brakes on this when it comes to purely hunting with trad. Don't see the great groups they shoot and automatically think this it the way to go because it is not. Instinctively shooting can be close to as good and under hunting conditions instinctively shooting is far better.

Having been one of the best instinctive shooters, I had these guys coming at me all the time, pulling their girly pound bows and string walking, face walking and all sort of was developed just to beat the instinctive shooters on the range. I see it as cheating and in some cases according to the rules it is, so maybe I am venting some, but the point is for new trad shooters to consider instinctive. It is better for moving targets and low light shots which hunting often presents those type shots.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Your only instinctive shot, was your first shot!

One of the best instinctive shooters I know, is the absolute worst shot on animals I've ever seen. He has more arrow hanging out of animals than most 3D shoots. That is one good reason to have an aiming system in the moment of truth.


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[WoodBow]

You are definitely venting. No doubt there. Take a deep breath and worry less about what other people are doing. And I understand completely what you are saying. I shot trad instinctively for close to 10 years. I also got beat at shoots by guys not shooting instinctive. I wasn't there trying to make a living. I was there to have fun and I accomplished that. Hopefully they did too.

Consistently accurate instinctive shooting takes a lot of practice and IMO a lot of skill that not everyone has. Using some form of a sighting method lets guys get good accuracy without having to shoot a ton all the time. I played around with a fixed crawl for a while and got good results. But I just didn't like it. It didn't feel as good. Instinctive feels good to me. I even fashioned an adjustable single pin sight that would allow me to use it with my bow canted. I had great results with that too. But I just didn't enjoy it like instinctive. I do not have the time now to devote to shooting enough to keep my instinctive shooting super good. Last year I did what i considered unthinkable for years. I bought a compound. I looked down on compound guys somewhat when I shot exclusively trad. But man I sure can fill the freezer with the consistency a compound gives. I'm having fun. When I'm not, I will do something else.

Yes instinctive is better for moving targets and low light. Sighting methods are typically better for accuracy. Pick your poison. Have fun and don't let what other people are doing ruin it for you.

 

[Superkodiak38]

The method you are refering to is called gap shooting. Most gap shooters I know, and I know a lot of them, will tell you that "gapstinctive" is how they shoot. You see the point of your arrow in your peripherial vision no matter how you shoot. If you choose to use it as a reference point or not is up to you but it is there. Howard Hill shot "split vision" which is arguably gap shooting and he killed more critters than EHD.

 

[oldgoat]

I guessed who the OP was without looking as soon as I started reading the post!

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

"Your only instinctive shot, was your first shot! "

Actually it was just the opposite. The more I shot the more the instinctive feel developed. Instinctive is not a calculated shot process meaning you cannot figure it up in your head before the shot. The gap shooter on the video I watched had to first figure the yardage, then remember how much gap to hold for the distance. He was quiet impressive at his known distance with a familiar target..he knew just where to hold the arrow tip. But just as compound shooters are never forthright on the shortcomings of their methods, he only showed the great groups he shot. I would surmise that if he was stump shooting and carrying out the shot in 3 seconds, his groups would not have been so impressive. All this said to repeat the message, instinctive takes time to develop. New shooters should give it the time it takes and don't blame poor shooting on instinctive aiming..it is likely poor form and inconsistent release causing the problems.

 

[mallacootasmoothie]

Don't see the great groups they shoot and automatically think this it the way to go because it is not. Instinctively shooting can be close to as good and under hunting conditions instinctively shooting is far better.

Have you ever tried gap shooting? How long did you exclusively use a aiming system to make this claim?

 

[Ryan Avery]

I missed this bull at 8 yards when it surprised me(instinctive) He ran out to 30 and I shot him at 30 with the gap method. Stick bows are hard enough. Find a method that makes you consistent and confident. The rest is just noise.

 

[wncbrewer]

Whatever is the most effective way to put arrows in the boiler room is the method that one should use. Gap, instinctive, site and a release aid, whatever it takes for the individual and where that person happens to be in their hunting journey. That's the best way.


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[TurkeyBowMaster]

Really nice bull Ryan and IMO the stick makes him even better.

I think is pays for everyone to practice some instinctive to go along with the primary method. Even sight compound shooters should just in case a really fast and close opportunity presents itself. I shot thousands of bb's out of a Daisy, all instinctive because the sights were never set. When I graduated to a rifle with scope I still had those skills and I would practice aiming instinctive and then look through the scope to confirm the accuracy my instincts. On two occasions that all paid off when I had less than a second to shoulder the rifle and no time to look through the scope. I killed both and each were over 50 yards away and running full tilt.

I did try 3 fingers under but the point on was around 45 and I wanted more distance. My goal has always been that I wanted to be able to hit out to 60 for varmits so I went back to split. Being close to point on seems to hurt my instintive method.

I suppose if we were talking quail on the covey rise it wouldn't be a debate. 3D wouldn't either. Most other game falls somewhere in between 3d and quail, and you have the option to hold out for what favors your style of shooting.

I just want to be ready for anything and others might as well.

 

[Beendare]

So what do you think instinctive shooting is TBM?

Its 'instinctively' referencing the arrow to predict its arrow flight. Its been proven conclusively instinctive shooters cannot shoot in pitch black....so they need to reference the arrow...whether they want to admit it or not. All aiming styles use the tip of the arrow; consciously or unconsciously

Instinctive guys get beat by Gappers...and gappers get beat by String walkers.....which pretty much tells a guy what is the most accurate way to shoot. That fixed crawl is a deadly hunting strategy. I've played with it and ts crazy how easy it is to set up to shoot that way.

 

[LostArra]

I bought my first compound at 62 (50 yrs of trad shooting) due to having a shoulder injury and having drawn an elk tag. The shoulder recovered before the season and I was back to my longbow and shooting better than ever because the compound made me realize the importance of an aiming system as part of a good shot sequence. I was "aiming" before the injury but I was embracing it afterwards.

Using the arrow just keeps it simple, adding a sight just complicates it for me. The semantics of traditional shooting or how someone else shoots is not something I worry about.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

So what do you think instinctive shooting is TBM?

Its 'instinctively' referencing the arrow to predict its arrow flight. Its been proven conclusively instinctive shooters cannot shoot in pitch black....so they need to reference the arrow...whether they want to admit it or not. All aiming styles use the tip of the arrow; consciously or unconsciously

Instinctive guys get beat by Gappers...and gappers get beat by String walkers.....which pretty much tells a guy what is the most accurate way to shoot. That fixed crawl is a deadly hunting strategy. I've played with it and ts crazy how easy it is to set up to shoot that way.

And all get beat by compound shooters with back tension releases...yet the whole premise of these statements are rooted on the target range. The gap narrows in the field and the faster the action and closer the shots there comes a point when the lines cross and when in the right hands trad instinctive becomes the most effective weapon.

I know instinctive might be the wrong word, but it is the word we use when it comes to referencing the method that ignores the arrow. Total focus is on the target and the arrow is a blur. For me, I am left eye dominant so if I pay attention to the arrow is see it with my left eye clearer than the right and as a right handed shooter this makes it at an angle to the target. So with my method both eyes are aiming at the spot and the arrow is below and the closer the target the more the eyes angle inwards and the bow arm automatically lowerers...vice versa for loner shots. How much eyesight comes into play vrs how much feel is debatable. When shooting basketball I always knew when it left my hand. With archery I "know" before it leaves the bow, and that can be the difficult part and holding it all together until the release is made can be the challenging part. When I all comes together it's a sweet thing.

 

[Beendare]

And all get beat by compound shooters with back tension releases...yet the whole premise of these statements are rooted on the target range. ...

Not just "The target range"....but we want to hit what we are aiming at- right? Its all rooted in ACCURACY. BTW, John Demmer a string walker has shot 299 scores [out of 300] with a stickbow...beating many compound guys with pins and release.

Bringing compound guys shooting a release with pins is not germane to this aiming discussion. Why not add scoped rifles?

All i'm saying is....everyone references the arrow to some extent in stickbow shooting. Use whatever technique you prefer- there is room for all. But if you are talking, "What is most accurate?" that has a definitive answer as I stated....and its not instinctive shooting.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

I'm not sure why, but the anti instintive crowd seem to speak the loudest and passes on the myth that nobody can shoot true instinctive and that is just not true. When God created the mind he created an amazingly complex computer. You can hold a laser gun at your waist and take a shot and your hand will automatically adjust to be dead in or very close on the second shot. That is with nothing to reference but feel.

Guys that shoot with a sighting method have to look at the target, the brain converts the image to a distance in yards, then we translate that into a sight pictureeith in the form if a gap or which pin to use according to the yardage.

With instinctive, the eyes and brain still figures the distance it just doesn't translate the distance into yardage, but it is just as accurate because it still uses the same tools..eyes and brain. Instinctive just uses a feel method to do the sighting.

 

[mallacootasmoothie]

I'm not sure why, but the anti instintive crowd seem to speak the loudest

You started this thread....

 

[ethan]

I've been shooting/hunting strictly with traditional bows, as well as building them for the past 17 years. I shoot "instinctive" but I'm pretty sure I see my arrow in my peripheral vision. Honestly, I don't care. It works for me. That being said, if gap shooting felt right for me and I thought it would make me a better bow hunter, you can bet your arse I'd be shooting gap starting tomorrow. I say if you like shooting a trad bow and want to hunt with one, figure out a "aiming system" that works for you and run with it. Who gives a flip what the next guy is using or what he thinks about what you are using.

 

[Boudreaux]

Its 'instinctively' referencing the arrow to predict its arrow flight. Its been proven conclusively instinctive shooters cannot shoot in pitch black....so they need to reference the arrow...whether they want to admit it or not. All aiming styles use the tip of the arrow; consciously or unconsciously

I think your definition of instinctive shooting is WAY off base. You are instinctively (without thought) predicting where the path of the arrow will cross/meet the target.

If "all aiming styles use the tip of the arrow; consciously or unconsciously" how would you classify trick shooters, shooting behind their back where they cannot reference the tip of their arrow? Black magic?

Where have you found its been proven "conclusively" that instinctive shooters can't shoot in pitch black? Maybe those shooters called themselves instinctive, but truly weren't.

Thanks,
Boswell

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

I think most people who say who giives a flip actually does give enough of a flip to try and help a guy whenever they can. Thai is all I was doing when I started this. Guys who transit to trad need to know the benefits of instinctive over sighting methods. I suppose I shouldn't have said instinctive is best..should have said best if, the if being if you can shoot accurately that way.

I like to accentuate the positives of a method... think of it like this: it a good instinctive trad shooter could stand in the shoes of a sight shooter, especially a compound shooter and both get the simultaneous opportunities, the sight shooter would never get a shot off unless the instinctive shooter passed on it. When mastered its a hard method to beat.

 

[Beendare]

I think your definition of instinctive shooting is WAY off base. You are instinctively (without thought) predicting where the path of the arrow will cross/meet the target.

Hey, i'm not trying to tick off the instinctive guys....shoot what you like...as i said there is room for all. Behind the back shooting? Not many guys killing deer that way- grin. FWIW, I've seen Byron F in person and he was really off that day missing 1/2 of his shots...unlike the edited vids on youtube or TV where he never misses. THAT is the problem I have with instinctive.....plus the fact it can take a long time to be consistent.

I tried shooting instinctive...it wasn't for me. I was inherently less accurate and then when I missed [a 140" buck at a little over 20 yds or so] I had no reference point...in other words, no way to fix it. I currently shoot either fixed crawl or what I call instinctive gap. When my brain is concentrating too much on the gap....I'm less accurate. When I set the gap...and THEN focus on the spot with my unconscious mind referencing the gap...I shoot better. YMMV