Too much power?

Bubblehide

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Many of you here are obviously referring to typical criminal law, as in person on person where witnesses generally exist. When it comes to crimes on wildlife, there are rarely any witnesses. Furthermore, the courts recognized this fact, and the fact that animals cannot tell their story, well because animals cannot talk.
 

Bubblehide

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I'll add mor after a while. But in short, the guys saying Wardens don't need a warrant are correct.
 

dtrkyman

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They may not need a warrant but their going to have to break into my house, I ain't letting them in!
 
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Billy Goat

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From your link:

1.15 What circumstances may call for a warrantless search? Under certain circumstances, there are exceptions to warrant requirements. These may include, but are not limited to:



A. Searches incident to arrest (section 1.16).



B. Exigent circumstances (section 1.17).



C. Consent searches (section 1.18).



D. Vehicle searches (section 1.19).



E. Inventory searches (section 1.20).



F. Border Searches (section 1.21).

I don't see anything about searching private property without a warrant. Do you?


Yes, I see several, in the link.

For the most part, GW is limited to needing a warrant to search your dwelling, outbuildings and general property are fair game in most instances.


I believe in the instance of this case, they probably didn't need a warrant. They questioned the guy, went to the taxidermist, talked to taxidermist. If the taxidermist gave them permission to take the antlers that were in his control, that's all they needed.
 

260madman

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Fish cops hang out on my property without permission at night to try and catch poachers. Warden told my dad they were doing this a couple years ago.
 

NB7

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a warden walked onto my moms land when my brother lived there cuz his truck was the same color as a suspected burglar. nothing came of it.
That would be considered to have been done "under color of law", which is to say the government (police) cannot circumvent due process by using another entity to do things they legally can't. Such as directing a citizen to go where they themselves can't, or in your case, directing a GW to do the same. Even if the GW tried using a lame duck other reason to enter the property, it's still pre-text.
It wouldn't fly anywhere
 

49ereric

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That would be considered to have been done "under color of law", which is to say the government (police) cannot circumvent due process by using another entity to do things they legally can't. Such as directing a citizen to go where they themselves can't, or in your case, directing a GW to do the same. Even if the GW tried using a lame duck other reason to enter the property, it's still pre-text.
It wouldn't fly anywhere
it takes a good lawyer to defeat such intrusions and it is not cheap and most of us are not made of money. I think the warden expects no one will fight it so they go ahead.
for the warden to tell my mom outright they were interested in my brothers truck due to the color and supposed burglary’s tells me they were not worried about being taken to court by my mom.
 
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aclawrence

aclawrence

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Well honestly I’m confused about what the wardens can and can’t do now. I’ve always heard they can pretty much do what they want to. I know it’s like everything there’s some great wardens and some not so great. It seems like these in the story were not so great unless they really did have some evidence, which it appears they didn’t. It’s a bummer for the hunter that the hair skipped on his capes. I know it can really suck when people in leo are buddies with the wrong people. It can make for a crap situation.


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49ereric

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Well honestly I’m confused about what the wardens can and can’t do now. I’ve always heard they can pretty much do what they want to. I know it’s like everything there’s some great wardens and some not so great. It seems like these in the story were not so great unless they really did have some evidence, which it appears they didn’t. It’s a bummer for the hunter that the hair skipped on his capes. I know it can really suck when people in leo are buddies with the wrong people. It can make for a crap situation.


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Good point.
was the warden lying to my mom when he said it was about supposed burglary and the color of my brother truck?
when law officers can legally lie to you who knows what is going on.
which to repeat what others have said here never talk to the law without legal representation.
 

stanginthe11s

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unfortunately, the laws pertaining to each circumstance are so twisted that its near impossible to figure out. US fish and game is federal which has no real bearing on state law. while one can argue that, you would be wasting your time. states have total control over what laws they want to implement in their respective state, Irregardless of what the feds say.
now, each state treats GW or DEC (as its called here) differently. so a GW may have little authority in your state, but in my state they were given the highest authority. they have more freedoms than state police.
as far as search and seizure go, well there's a few loopholes there that the police know how to use very well. you would have a really hard time with GW trespass because of the "in plain site" rule. they will use that as an excuse, followed by "an informant told us a crime was committed" to circumvent the probable cause part.
can they kick your door in without a warrant? no, however a judge will quickly sign a warrant when they're told a suspect is refusing to comply. and if you believe bad officers will be honest then you're Nieve.
the one area that the guy in the video had a good chance at would be the fact that state officials entered a different state and removed items. that is federal, and the officers from WV can be held on federal charges unless there is proof of an actual crime and NC also pursued charges, none of which was the case based on the video. there is a process for LE in order the cross state lines, one requirement is they notify state police and are accompanied by them. to do that, WV d.a. is supposed to send over documents to NC showing there is reason to enter (evidence of a crime). after that point, the suspect should be detained until a judge has time to review. at no time should any evidence be removed from the state in which it was confiscated in. the fact that 2 state agencies did not follow protocol seems really odd or really shady.
sadly, this is the world today. guilty until proven innocent and police never lie.
 

HvyBeams

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it takes a good lawyer to defeat such intrusions and it is not cheap and most of us are not made of money.
Lawyer fees are paid by the defendant (government) if found in your favor in a 1983 civil rights violation. That's the reason why lawsuits are settled relatively fast if there was a violation. That way, you have to pay your lawyer fees and not them. A jury could find in your favor for $1 and the judge orders reasonable lawyer fees paid by the defendant. Could be $100-200K worth of fees. Cheaper to give you $75k and have you pay your attorney.

If you notice in the video the lawyer specifically says 1983 civil rights violation. I think there could and will be an argument made by the government that when he gave the cape/antlers to a 3rd party (taxidermist), he gave up an argument of a 4th Amendment violation when they took his property. Of course, you can argue anything. It does seem the lawyer in the video knows his stuff, so it will be interesting to see what happens.
 
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z987k

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Clearly there were rights violations if when the day before trail is to start the government confesses they have no evidence to support the charges.
 

Bubblehide

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Unlike typical criminal laws, Fish and Wildlife laws are "Prima Facie" laws; meaning that based on first impression(s) the warden is considered correct until proved otherwise. So if you are engaged in or appear to be engaged in, have been as in past tense, or appear about to be engaged in hunting or fishing, a warden does not require your permission to search. This is directly related to what I previously mentioned, wildlife cannot communicate the crimes committed against them, as person on person crimes where you have a complainant.

In the case of this thread, the wardens went to the suspect to investigate, he admitted to harvesting 2 bucks, ...
Granted, the wardens had suspicion, no ZERO evidence a crime was committed. IMNSHO, the wardens confiscating the racks and hides is very questionable, as they had ZERO evidence. The press conference was clearly a deliberate and hostile act intended to damage the reputation of the suspect. IMNSHO, that was criminal on the part of the wardens and should have some severe consequences.
 

*zap*

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Basically, government agencies are way out of control. Their lawyers will lie to you all day long and just try to wear you down since they have the power of government behind them and there is absolutely no accountability except in very extreme cases. I know from my own experience that a state law enforcement officer created a false incident report 6 months after property was damaged by his negligence in order to hide his negligence and make it almost impossible to hold the state accountable to pay for damages.....it is obvious the incident report was fabricated and he is still on that job. When these people get away with that kind of stuff regularly they become a big problem for law abiding citizens....it is a systemic/nationwide problem that is not going to be addressed. Always film any interaction with law enforcement and never answer any questions..
 

Where's Bruce?

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The obvious resolution to this matter is being undertaken. When LEO exerts more power than warranted EVERY CITIZEN should teach that agency a lesson. Civil litigation for gross negligence, wrongful prosecution, malicious seizure, property damage and character degradation, libel and slander with a multi-million dollar claim served to the agency and the two officers individually. The punitive damages will be immense and will teach GWs nationwide they are on the hook FINANCIALLY for their poor judgment. I respect law enforcement officers but what these guys did is despicable and they must be made examples of. The prosecutor will be an ideal witness as he reads his written reason for not proceeding with the criminal trial. Once the judgment is secured these two pinheads will be stripped of their shields because they cost too much to defend. That's what I would do. The GW that wrongfully cited me was ordered to undertake retraining at my request. The GW looked at me with a smile and the Judge called him on it and then ordered the classroom punishment stating he needs to be more competent at understanding the regulations as those he intends to cite. The courtroom is the solution to abuses of power by LEO. The agency will try to settle...the plaintiff must reject all offers and demand a court trial so no defendant escapes without damage to their reputation. I'd also have their photos taken when the verdict is rendered and mount those heads next to the antlers on the wall.

BTW...taking a photo with your fresh kill with GPS coords recorded is a simple defense against this kind of BS.
 
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*zap*

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too much law enforcement operating in the 'grey' area today....it is a shame to see the USA go down this way.
 
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