The Selway and Frank back in the day

[Wolverine]

For years now I've been reading about how bad the hunting is in the Selway and the Frank Church due to wolves. On my first elk hunt 20 years ago in Montana, I hunted with a guy who said he used to guide in the Selway and talked like it was the promise land. Elk a deer for everyone willing to go in after them. Anyone here with "the good old days" stories of the Selway or the Frank? Was it the land of every elk hunters dreams or was it just tall tails. Year's ago I always fantasized about the backcountry hunt with awesome country and untouched game. Now that I at a point in life to finally afford it, it seems it would be more of a sight seeing trip than a hunting trip.....although that wouldn't be all that bad either. However, the fantasy had abundant game to hunt. So was it really the promise land or just fantasy?

 

[BeaverHunter]

If you’re interested about reading what it was like in the frank church back in the day I would suggest reading some of Stan Pott’s books. He isn’t a fancy author. Just a good ol boy and story teller(factual stories). Not exclusively about the Frank but all about his life which a lot of was spent guiding/flying/hunting/almost dying. Highly recommend. It’s never been in an insane hunters paradise but based on his stories, it was better than it is now, in my opinion.

 

[young7.3]

I haven't hunted "the good ole days" but back in the 90s, my dad and uncles (about 9 of them) went on the October hunt in the Frank and came back with 7 elk and a bear. Best hunt they've been on in terms of success % of the group. I've hunted the Frank 4 times (2009, 2010, 2015, 2017), harvested once.

 

[Thomas11]

It’s my understanding that there a lot of deer now there? Just not so much the elk. But idk?

 

[DAOutfitters208]

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/elkshape/e/53082439

Here is a good podcast about the Selway back in the day and a guy that used to hunt it.

 

[RCB]

I don't know about "back in the day", but looking at the elk harvest rates of the general rifle hunt in those units (i.e., 20, 20A, 17, 19, 16A, 26, 27), it's been basically flat at 20% harvest rate since 2001. So it looks like not much has chanced since then, at least with regard to hunter success rate. Perhaps in prior decades it was better.

 

[juan trueno]

I don't know about "back in the day", but looking at the elk harvest rates of the general rifle hunt in those units (i.e., 20, 20A, 17, 19, 16A, 26, 27), it's been basically flat at 20% harvest rate since 2001. So it looks like not much has chanced since then, at least with regard to hunter success rate. Perhaps in prior decades it was better.

It’s funny. You don’t know about back in the day. You don’t know about today. You have no boots on the ground experience - and you are quite prolific as well, insuring that your lack o experience and understanding of the situation is well publicized, alongside your postulation and speculation - and you do so in a really offputting manner that seems disingenuous at best. There is a lot more going on than those columns for unit, harvest,hunters,days, success, 6 points, spikes can show - but for an armchair activist it’s apparently adequate to spout off about.

What you can’t get your head around is that in a HUGE chunk of real estate- selway, lolo, elk city, middle fork- is that while the harvest numbers stay the same over all this time- as you’ve so astutely pointed out- there aren’t many elk on the winter range anymore. Hundreds of elk along the Clearwater. Not thousands.

Cows had and should
Have 90% calving rates. Every cow cycles until she gets bred essentially but that’s Also before your time and probably they were mismanaged just to provide game to shoot...


60% calving rate nowadays- why? Wolves? Stress? Nutrition? Who cares- thank god we aren’t growing surplus elk to shoot.

Yes 1:5 guys can and does and always has kill one. Some guys do it every year hell or high water- but that doesn’t mean the hunting is as good as it was- but that’s something you only figure out by... hunting. For years. When guys who always kill one tell you it’s not any good, it’s different than when guys who don’t tell you the same- because like you- they don’t even know
I am done with you now, like I said I think you are disingenuous and offputting so I can’t invest time or energy in you

 

[RCB]

Yes 1:5 guys can and does and always has kill one. Some guys do it every year hell or high water- but that doesn’t mean the hunting is as good as it was- but that’s something you only figure out by... hunting. For years. When guys who always kill one tell you it’s not any good, it’s different than when guys who don’t tell you the same- because like you- they don’t even know

That's a good point. If one year, 20% of the hunters succeed, but it only takes them 3 days on average, whereas in another year 20% succeed but it takes 8 hard days on average, then clearly they weren't equally easy even though the harvest rates were the same.

I went back and looked at the total harvest of the Selway and Middle Fork areas - not just the hunter success rates. The basic result is this: In the early 2000's, rifle harvests were high, ranging from 700 to 900 elk. Then starting in 2007 they dropped a lot for 5 straight years, dipping below 300 elk in 2011. That's a big decrease. After that they rebounded a bit, into the 500s in the last few years, but definitely not as high as 15-20 years ago. The number of hunters have followed about the same pattern.

So this seems to fit what people are saying. Sure, the hunters that do show up can still be successful, but there are fewer elk and fewer hunters than before.

 

[Wolverine]

Guys, I guess I should have asked for real world experience from people that have hunted in the wilderness areas then and now. Not really interested in stories from people with keyboard experience only. Real world stories are always more entertaining than someone just spitting data. I am very capable of researching data (boring) but I don't personally know anyone who has hunted the backcountry then and now. Would love to hear from the men that have been there and done that.

 

[sneaky]

I don't know about "back in the day", but looking at the elk harvest rates of the general rifle hunt in those units (i.e., 20, 20A, 17, 19, 16A, 26, 27), it's been basically flat at 20% harvest rate since 2001. So it looks like not much has chanced since then, at least with regard to hunter success rate. Perhaps in prior decades it was better.

You didn't even research the numbers for "back in the day". 2001 is about 7 years post wolf introduction. "Back in the day" would be early 90s prior to wolves and earlier.

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[BluMtn]

In the 70s a friend of mine hunted the Selway and Frank areas every year and always returned with a very nice bull elk. He would always ask me to go with him but he went in early season as I was starting fall field work so I never got to go with him. I have another friend whose dad spent the summers and fall in the Selway area and has told me stories of the Elk that roamed the country. But I have also talked to guys that spend time in there now and they have told me they can be in there for extended periods of time and not see any elk or even sign. Yes it is second hand info but from people whose opinion I believe in.

 

[black dawg]

Hunted some of the selway, and all of the montana areas that border it since about 1990. The areas we hunted had plenty of elk. Heard the first wolf howl in 02. Found a couple cow elk killed by wolves that year also. 03 opening morning rifle season I killed a bull.....That was the last bull I have seen in that area since. Whitetail populations took a crap about the same time, but have recovered mostly, in the last 9 years. THe moose populations in these areas got hammered hard too, but we are starting to see some in the last couple years...…"back in the day" moose were seen daily, along with elk.

We still whitetail hunt, and bear hunt in these areas, and have seen 3 elk since that bull that I killed in 03. There is NO elk sign, and we don't elk hunt there, and WOULDNT shoot an elk there given the chance.

I know atleast 1 outfitter that had to find a different operating area in another part of the state, to keep hunting elk.

Look at the tag availability in the montana areas that border the selway, cow tags were draw, but given out in high numbers even after the sharp decline in elk populations...…....even when the helicopter elk surveys showed that something was seriously wrong. Last time I checked, there were no cow tags available.....other than the stragglers they are trying to finish off on private land in the valley.

One of these areas, that in my opinion was one of the best big bull areas in the state, is drawing only for BULLS now(45 tags) with 10 cow tags available by drawing.

I don't believe the wolves are 100% to blame (winter of 96 or 97? extremely high numbers of cow tags montana and Idaho), but without them I think the populations would have been just fine.

 

[BeaverHunter]

Guys, I guess I should have asked for real world experience from people that have hunted in the wilderness areas then and now. Not really interested in stories from people with keyboard experience only. Real world stories are always more entertaining than someone just spitting data. I am very capable of researching data (boring) but I don't personally know anyone who has hunted the backcountry then and now. Would love to hear from the men that have been there and done that.

I’ve shot a bull elk in the frank every year for the last 8 years straight up until last year when I had already shot a bull in Wyoming and had a late buck deer tag( which I also filled). Could have shot a bull last year also, but don’t want to be a glutton. That real world enough?

 

[mtnwrunner]

I’ve shot a bull elk in the frank every year for the last 8 years straight up until last year when I had already shot a bull in Wyoming and had a late buck deer tag( which I also filled). Could have shot a bull last year also, but don’t want to be a glutton. That real world enough?

I'm not asking for any honey holes, but..............

Randy

 

[HookUp]

Lots of units running 20% success rates with guys who "havent seen an elk in a decade" but they still are there every year. At some point OP call bio's, look at harvest stats and go. No one is going to give you the straight story on there honey hole.

 

[Wolverine]

Lots of units running 20% success rates with guys who "havent seen an elk in a decade" but they still are there every year. At some point OP call bio's, look at harvest stats and go. No one is going to give you the straight story on there honey hole.

Interesting......"no one is going to give you the straight story on their honey hole". ....I didn't realize that asking for stories from 20 years or more ago was asking for a honey hole. If the Selway and the whole Frank Church is someone's honey hole and they feel threatened by telling stories from decades ago, then the only reason they are on this site is to get butt hurt. Would it be less threatening if I asked for stories from any western state wilderness areas unnamed? Is that acceptable? Should I go for 30-40 years ago? It's simply the stories or claims of how the hunting was that has me interested. If that's somehow asking for a honey hole then perhaps this site should layout everything that is interpreted as asking for a honey hole. Thank you to those of you that have responded with your experiences. I Would love to hear more from those of you not threatened from sharing stories from years ago.

 

[idelkslayer]

No firsthand experience, just data from IDFG reports.

30 years ago hunters in unit 17 used to kill 500+ elk per year. Some years it was as high as 800. Today fewer than 100 are killed in that unit each year. A few years ago it dropped to 41 and last year was 80.

Even 100 elk harvested in an area as large as unit 17 is pretty dismal.

It's safe to say that the good ol' days are gone in the Selway.

 

[sneaky]

No firsthand experience, just data from IDFG reports.

30 years ago hunters in unit 17 used to kill 500+ elk per year. Some years it was as high as 800. Today fewer than 100 are killed in that unit each year. A few years ago it dropped to 41 and last year was 80.

Even 100 elk harvested in an area as large as unit 17 is pretty dismal.

It's safe to say that the good ol' days are gone in the Selway.

I would be willing to bet that over 90% of the ones killed now are from clients of outfitters

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[idelkslayer]

There are 12 different outfitters with licensed area in unit 17 alone. If each one kills 4 elk per year that's 48 elk. Last years harvest was 80. So I would agree that at 60% or more of elk are killed with outfitters.

When you stop to think about it, it is really sad that a once great unit has fallen so far. There is a lot of good looking habitat, and a lot of it is empty.

 

[idahohikker]

There’s at least 9 outfitters in unit 27.

Same thing- lots of good looking, empty country.