Starting Gun Dogs vs. The Demands of Family Life

Unpopular opinion: forget about the dog.

Most other hobbies you can pick up and put down as your family and work dictate. With a dog, that is not the case. Dogs require daily, non-negotiable care - walks, feeding, training, attention. You can't 'pause' a dog the way you can pause other hobbies. And, a dog will be dead in ten years.

When your kids are grown and out of the house, you won't look back and say "Gee, I wish I would have spent more time with the dog."

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"A dog is a 10–15 year commitment that restricts your freedom, adds daily obligations, and doesn’t provide the long-term emotional payoff that time with your kids does. For people who value flexibility and family-first time allocation, skipping the dog is the rational choice."

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Using the crate is as a tool is invaluable. Time outside of it is structured and supervised with slowly increasing roam range. Baby gates are wonderful. There's zero need for the puppy to have free roam of any part of the house beyond the single room you are in, and in the crate the rest of the time.

What we gained with our started dog was knowing it can find birds and is gun broke. What we do not have a is a dog with recall to a name (just tone on a collar), and having to undue some bathroom habits. Manners have come a long fine and so has obedience.

For you, I'd get a puppy so it can understand the structure of your household from the beginning, and I'd submit the dog would be better off in the long run being around your youngest child. Random chaos is good for bird dogs.

If you need help with PP breeders, let me know. There's a phenomenal litter on the ground right now with two VC but gentle parents.
Thanks for this.

I have been in touch with Bob Farris for about a year and in an ideal world I would end up with a dog out of his Cedarwoods kennel. Always open to additional suggestions.
 
We got our first dog when the kids were 2/5/8 and they loved it. Purposely went with a family friendly chocolate lab that had parents that hunted. It was my first dog ever and I trained it to retrieve ok- nothing fancy, etc but better than nothing and was a good companion and my older son loved going out with the dog. I knew going into it first and foremost it would be a family dog, and obedience training was the most important.

I would say at this busy part of your life do not add on unrealistic demands to train a perfect trials level dog! way too much energy, money and time commitment that other areas will have to sacrifice.

Now if your family and kids (especially wife) really want a dog now (and there are many studies that support better emotional development in kids with a pet dog) The compromise is a good family dog that can "hunt" with you and not be so worked up on how "finished" or "competitive" the dog is.
 
My first real gun dog: I was married w my son being 7 years old. Full time job. Lived in the city. White picket fence shit. Bottom line- it was a strain. I was dead set on making a fine gun dog and a semi decent family pet. Had lots of "rules" about the dog and honestly it was a strain. Family didn't want a gun dog they wanted a pet. I wanted a Ferrari of a dog that could make do as a pet. Ended up with a bad ass hunting companion but an un happy wife with all the added travel and time requirements to see to it he performed. Talking traveling to hunt tests and all that. Ended up selling him because he sucked as a pet and at the time. I didn't regret it because I was ruining my marriage. Kid didn't care but also didn't enjoy him like I did in the field.

Fast fwd: next dog I got was started and also was a little more soft demeanor. Got my English setter and she is the best balance. Great pet but turns it on come fall. She's naturally got it and requires very little to get ready for the hunting season. I'm also older. And not hung up on titles and "proving" anything. Just like having a good companion who happens to also hunt.

For me. If I was to do it all over from scratch. I'd pick up that started dog. Bond with it. Not take life so seriously with having the best dog in the field and just enjoy things organically. I'd still make it a point to work the dog and give it exposure and opportunity but taking it to the extreme- never again
 
I don't think being a good house pet necessarily means being a mediocre hunting dog, or vice versa. I've known dozens of exceptional hunting dogs that were also wonderful companions at home.

That said, I recognize that for many people, having a good family dog is more important than owning a superstar hunting dog. If you live in a small home, have young children, and have limited time, a calm and manageable pet may be a higher priority than maximizing field performance.

In my experience, there are certain breeds that strike a very good balance between being pleasant house dogs and at least solid hunting companions.

Based on the dogs I've owned, including Pointers, GSPs, Irish Setters, a hound mix, a Cocker Spaniel, and Deutsch Langhaars (DL/GLPs), I would say that the Cocker and my DLs have been the best family pets while still being above-average hunting dogs. Next would be the Setters and the GSPs. The Pointer and the hound mix, on the other hand, were absolute hell around the house.

I've also spent a fair amount of time around Griffons, German-import Pudelpointers, Small Münsterländers, and cover dog Setters and Pointers. Most of them were pleasant dogs to live with and performed quite well in the field. Some were truly exceptional.

The GSP/DK and GWP/DD are a bit different, because with those breeds a lot depends on the particular bloodline, breeding program, and kennel. There are many different "types," especially within the GSP world. I've seen superstar GSPs (DKs) and GWPs (DDs) that were also incredibly easy and enjoyable dogs to live with.

One thing I would add, though, is that no matter how calm and docile a dog is in the house, if it has even a moderate amount of drive, it still needs an outlet for that energy. An outstanding hunting dog that also happens to be a great family companion cannot be deprived of exercise and mental stimulation. They all need time, work, and purpose to be at their best.
 
The house dog part. I worry about a lot of bad habits being created/reinforced while I am away at work during the day especially during the early months. I know that hunting will get that worked out on its own through finding the right breeding and putting time in on wild birds.

The started route is very appealing but I worry about missing on early socialization, especially with my youngest who has special needs. But all things considered maybe that is the most realistic path forward.
From my experience, setting aside the individual variability from dog to dog, it is easier to enforce good training rules and behavior on a pup when your kids are under about age 5-6 than it is when they are 6-12. Kids are just so much more "capable" and independent as they get out of the toddler young child phase, and that can really create set backs in training.
The PP is a great breed, but they are not very different from GWPs. In many cases, they are about 90% the same. Raising them requires just as much time, structure, and commitment as a GWP, GSP, or any of the other German breeds.

The PP has unfortunately been affected by its growing popularity. There are many accomplished dogs in terms of field performance, but not as many in terms of mental stability, by which I mean natural calmness. Quite a few that I have seen tend to be barkers or whiners, in other words, they have a very low stimulus threshold.

Not to mention that quite a few have become lighter in terms of body substance, with weaker bone structure, and often shorter or softer coats.

Poor bone structure and soft musculature often go hand in hand with a lower stimulus threshold.

A defining characteristic of the PP is supposed to be a stoic nature, a “fire breather” when given a task, and indifferent when not working. That balance has been lost in a significant number of PPs in the U.S. The drive is still there, but the stoicism is often missing.

I’m not saying all of them are like this, but quite a few are, especially over the past 10 years. I would strongly recommend doing thorough research before getting one. They are expensive dogs. Ask specifically about the parents’ natural calmness in real working conditions, not just the “off switch” talk, which is often more marketing than reality.

Before people pile up on me, I like PPs and I have seen great ones.
I'm a PP guy, and I think you have pretty closely nailed it. Over the last 10 (particularly the last 5-6) the number of "anxious" and whiny PPs has grown alarmingly. I even own one of them, and it's frustrating at times to say the least.
 
Adopt an adult dog, already house trained, over the hyperness of a young dog. Have had several adult adoptees which were/are wonderful pets and two have been great natural hunting dogs, one lab,one gsp/blue heeler. My son told me large black dogs get little love in pounds, my lab harley came to me at age 4 and turned into a remarkable hunting dogwith little effort on my part. House trained, calm and very devoted. As an elder he developed the ability to remove dove breasts from the carcass while retrieving, keeping the breast for himself. Many states have breed specific rescues that as well as 2nd Chance Bird Dogs
 
I'm a PP guy, and I think you have pretty closely nailed it. Over the last 10 (particularly the last 5-6) the number of "anxious" and whiny PPs has grown alarmingly. I even own one of them, and it's frustrating at times to say the least.

It’s a shame because it is such an amazing breed. Hunting with a well bred and trained PP is a joy. I find them to be better dogs, holistically speaking, than GWP.
 
Adopt an adult dog, already house trained, over the hyperness of a young dog. Have had several adult adoptees which were/are wonderful pets and two have been great natural hunting dogs, one lab,one gsp/blue heeler. My son told me large black dogs get little love in pounds, my lab harley came to me at age 4 and turned into a remarkable hunting dogwith little effort on my part. House trained, calm and very devoted. As an elder he developed the ability to remove dove breasts from the carcass while retrieving, keeping the breast for himself. Many states have breed specific rescues that as well as 2nd Chance Bird Dogs
Eating birds is not a good hunting dog.
 
I have a DD that is 5yrs old and I got him when my 4 kids were 5, 5, 10, & 11. Like most, I have a pretty demanding job as well. I trained him through the VJP, HZP, and VGP tests, which is a pretty big effort and took a lot of training time, especially the VGP. I made it an effort to take as little time as possible away from the family for training. I would get up early before anyone else was up, skip lunch and train on my lunch break, do it late in the evenings or pretty much any time I could sneak in 15-30 min. It doesn't take a lot of time, it just takes a lot of consistency. I also involved the kids when they wanted to in his training, which just made their bond with him even stronger.

Do your research and pick a good bloodline and a good breeder. A good breeder should ask what your home life looks like and help pick the right dog or be willing to tell you if his dogs aren't right for you.
 
I have one daughter, who turned 2 in January, and we have three dogs. One jack russell, one more house dog than hunting dog, and an actual hunting wpg.

He is stoic, quiet, a hammer in the field and water. Extremely cooperative and due to real life getting in the way has not been tested since puppy tests (that is changing next weekend though).

The hunting side is easy, the hard part is the day to day of carving out time a few times a week for a solid free run and find enough consistent time for higher levels of testing.

Due to my work and family schedule, I have been up and out of the house by 4:30am to run and do training the past month because there is no possible way for me to do it in the evenings.

The day to day is absolutely no joke and I will probably continue the 4am mornings throughout the summer at least 3 times a week.

The house is quiet and the family is happy. Couldn’t imagine not having him but he is a massive time suck.


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The day to day is absolutely no joke and I will probably continue the 4am mornings throughout the summer at least 3 times a week.

This is a nice dedication. Good luck. Are you training for a NAVHDA UT?
Good luck!

which is a pretty big effort and took a lot of training time, especially the VGP.

I trained for almost every day for my first VGP, thought the summer of 2023.
When I passed it and came home, I still had 2 weeks before the season opened. I didn't know what to do for that 2 week as my mind was so accustomed working with my dog. I almost had a PTSD.
Even my dog was confused.

What kennel your DD is from?
 
Thanks for this.

I have been in touch with Bob Farris for about a year and in an ideal world I would end up with a dog out of his Cedarwoods kennel. Always open to additional suggestions.

I've been around a couple Windy Sage PP's, and they are great dogs. Cedarwoods lines, great in the field, very well behaved and calm staked out when they aren't working. I wouldn't hesitate to give them a look.

We had a Cross Timber PP run at our chapter test last year and that dog looked great. It was a pretty small glimpse at just one of thier dogs, but he was solid in the field.
 
I've been around a couple Windy Sage PP's, and they are great dogs. Cedarwoods lines, great in the field, very well behaved and calm staked out when they aren't working. I wouldn't hesitate to give them a look.

We had a Cross Timber PP run at our chapter test last year and that dog looked great. It was a pretty small glimpse at just one of thier dogs, but he was solid in the field.
Todd(Windy Sage) has Bob Ferris(Cederwoods) for a mentor. I think Bob is just about out of the game and retired at this point if i remember. I recently saw some Canadian PPs run that looked great. But boy did they run big so not sure as to the OP's need for family dogs with those ones.

As to the OP, I'm a single guy. I didn't buy a dog until I bought a house because living in condos prior to that I didn't ever want to have to make the decision to give up a dog if I couldn't find a new dog friendly place when a lease was up. I definitely don't have the freedom to go do whatever that I used to. But I have companionship. My dog has an off switch. I benefit from him getting a lot of stimulation coming to my office with me. Training for NA didn't take but an every other week commitment for basically a morning. I like it an all day thing but don't have other commitments to rush to. And I've seen a number of peopke show up for training days with families in tow. Put up a canopy for shade and make a morning out of it. And yes you need to work on some stuff throughout the week but it shouldn't be a lot of time any given session during the week because the puppy doesn't have that kind of attention span.

To each their own and we all have different reasons for getting what we decide but I wouldn't gove up the time bonding with a puppy for the world. I don't want a started dog or to send my dog a way for weeks or months. I got a dog knowing I wanted a pet first and foremost and if I ended up with a decent hunting dog I would be happy. I got both. My brother had a young kid after he got his dog. He put in the time to UT that dog and it took some time for sure. Since he ran that test he just hunts with it. And while he doesn’t have a world class hunter, he has a really good one most would be happy with. Though I do think my brother needs to run his dog more in the morning. But he has a wife that doesn't like to get up early and so my brother gets to be up with the kid in case he wakes up before mom so he has to be at home instead of out with the dog.

If your house is chaos and high energy thats what your dog will learn from you and your wife. If you are both calm the dog will learn calm.
 
First, I would 100% recommend NOT adopting a dog with small children ESPECIALLY a special needs child. I don't think I could overemphasize that........1. Obviously, you are extremely unlikely to get a purebred from a shelter and a "pointer/hound mix" is not going to hunt like you want and very likely to be a nervy, anxious, and full of other undesirable behavior traits that you get when you mix breeds 2) If you luck out and find a purebred hunting breed or go through a hunting breed rescue, you still have NO CLUE how, or IF, they were socialized and to me that is an unacceptable starting point for a dog that will be mingling with my children.
My first dog was a GSP that we got from the shelter. I will tell you right now, I went the shelter route because I was cheap. It was stupid, I admit that. However, I was looking for a Lab and knew nothing of bird dogs but wanted to get into Pheasant hunting since I had recently moved to Iowa. It just so happened that they had a BEAUTIFUL 7 year old Shorthair. I immediately took him. The story was he was a serial escape artist/ wanderer and the previous owners were tired of bonding him out of puppy jail. He was a WONDERFUL dog for my wife and I, other adults, and older kids (3-5years old and up). However, he would get into nasty fights with ANY male dog he encountered....so no more dog parks....Additionally, he did NOT like little little kids, i.e. toddlers. 3 years old and older was not problem whatsoever but crawling babies and wobbling toddlers would make him growl.....it wasn't a deal breaker because it was easy enough to crate him in another room every once in a while when family with small kids came over and like I said, he loved playing with older kids......
Then we had our own baby.....We though it would be okay if he grew up with the baby from infancy, he would be used to them. That was the case for the SECOND GSP we had gotten in the meantime (we got her as a puppy from a breeder), but for him, nothing changed. He always growled and jumped away from the crawling baby. We had to be on the floor with the baby to ensure the baby left him alone or otherwise we had to kennel the dog. Well, one day we were playing with the baby and the dog just crossed the room towards us while we weren't looking, sniffed my son, and I turned around just in time to see my son reach for him and get snapped. There was no broken skin but it was clear that there was no more 'trying to make it work'. As much as we loved the dog, because he really was a great dog in every other circumstance, we had to give him away......
I will never adopt another dog while we have small kids because you just don't know what the previous owner did or didn't do to work with them. Our second dog that I worked with from a puppy is fantastic. She is the most tolerant and accommodating dog. I spend more effort keeping the babies from harassing her than the other way around. She is extremely gentle with them. She adjusts her roughness of play between my 4 year old and our 1 year old. She plays tug of war with the four year old but lets the baby take the toy right from her mouth and then she just plays fetch with him even though he can only throw it about 3 feet, and when she wants to keep the toy, she just walks away from him to her kennel and we teach the kids to respect that. When we hunt, she is ON IT. She hunts hard and finds birds. When I shoot them, she brings them back. She has tracked cripples hundreds of yards in the opposite direction that I thought the bird would go and I have to eat my words when she come back 10 minutes later with a very much alive rooster in her mouth. I try to drag her to the left where I think the birds are hiding and she insists on going right.....and of course slams on point a minute later....eventually I will learn to trust her. We haven't done any high level training, multiple blind retrieves, etc, but she is a great house dog and great hunting dog for my needs..

All of that said, I'm going to disagree with a lot of people here and say that it aint actually that hard. The potty training will 100% be the most burdensome part because you have to get up and let the dog out every two hours, or your wife does when you are gone, but it's only a couple months until they *mostly* have it. After my experiences, that is a small price to pay to have a substantially higher confidence that your dog will be safe with YOUR kids (toddlers, special needs, etc.), not just the trainer's 10-13 year old children. Besides potty training, the obedience training is just 10-15 minutes a day of basic commands, reinforced with good habits throughout the day. Don't let them jump on you, don't let them counter surf, make them wait at the door to be released, etc. It's not really like it's a rigid training schedule that your wife will be burdened by when you're gone, it's just correcting undesirable behavior when it comes up. It's not THAT hard. If she takes an active role in the regimented training while you are gone, it'll go faster. If not, it wont. That's fine. As long as she isn't actively encouraging it to eat garbage and crap on the floor, She isn't going to UNdo anything.

The bird dog training, to just average hunting ability for the average hunter, can be accomplished by an hour or two a week in the summer and then a bunch of wild bird contacts either during the summer or during your first season. The more training you do, the better he'll be. But it's in his DNA so if you just want him to find birds, point/flush, and bring them back after the shot, It's not terribly hard. You don't NEED him to be working at field trial or hunt test levels to kill birds and have fun. So much of this stuff can be done with your family present, too. My dog's puppy stage was before we had kids but just the other day I was out planting 8 pigeons for training with my 1.5 year old on my back and my 4 year old pulling the rip cord on the bird launchers. The four year old was shouting "One..Two..Three...BELLY FLOP!!!" as he lunched them and I dusted them lol.We had a ton of fun. It's all he talks about, going "pigeon hunting" with dad. My 1.5 year old now sees our homing pigeons fly around the yard and goes "Daddy! Bird shoot! Bird shoot!" and makes pew pew noises. As for time efficient exercise, get a dog roading bike attachment. Dog gets to run and you don't have to. A 1.5 mile jaunt takes me 10 minutes....I just wake up 15 minutes earlier for work every day than I otherwise would and then my wife doesn't have to worry about it. Very little effort, very little burden on the family. Days off or after work, 2x a week, we do a 6.5 mile bike ride with the dog...it only takes 40 minutes...and the kids get to ride along in the kiddie seat, too. I'd go for bike rides whether I had a dog or not, so I really don't feel like it's a burden. If anything, the dog is a motivator to go do activities you should do anyway. A dog becomes just a normal part of the family. You figure it out. Millions of people have figured it out. The difference is, During the fall I get to chase birds with my dog and they don't.


As a last note, I will say, get a mellow breed. Maybe a Britt or some lines of setters. Talk to the breeder. You want a house dog that can find birds, not field trial dog. GSPs can be fine house dogs, too. However, I won't be getting another one because the hair is ridiculous. I often see it just floating in the air in our house. It gets on all the fabric and embeds itself in the fibers and is impossible to clean. It's like glitter.
 
This is going to come off hard handed to a lot of people. To be clear im not talking about anyone in specific's dog. Just dogs in general.

I bought my first finished dog (ESS) from a pro trainer right when i graduated college. Having spent over a decade now guiding professionally and working with countless client dogs, it is to this date, the best decision i ever made around dogs. To start off fresh with a perfectly trained dog, ready to go out and win field trials is something incredible. I spent that first summer learing how to handle her then moved out west to live out of my car chase birds for two seasons. I spent the next decade plus with her doing everything from working odd jobs, guiding bird hunts, training dogs, getting a full time career and now raising a family (11mo old baby). Ive now had my hands on 100+ dogs from training/guiding/trialing etc. I have two personal hunting dogs now that are very well trained and hunted every weekend of the season. They live in the house. Everything else lives in kennel outside. Im very lucky that i can drop them off at the hunting plantation i guide at and travel whenever. The easy stuff is the hunting trips and the hunting season. The hardest parts is juggling the mischief they get into when im not home and its just the wife with the baby. Off season is the majority of the year unfortunately. They put a lot of stress on the home life now that there is a baby around. With just one dog i think it would be more manageable but two dogs is MORE THAN TWICE AS HARD

From my experiance in guiding and training dogs, the biggest mistake guys get into is buying an esoterric breed thinking it will somehow be better for them than a traditional breed. Like somehow a Spinone or a Italian dog will be great at everything?

I advise all of my customers to stay away from the esoteric breeds and reading all the BS online/podcasts/instagram about them. None of it is real. Every dog is its own individual with its own set of traits that make them good or bad in the house. The only thing you get by purchasing an esoteric breed is looks. These looks almost alwasy come at an increased risk that the dog will not perform well in the field. For some reason, people think that high octain field trial dogs will be terrible family pets. I have not once noticed this to be the case. If the dog is unruley in the house, its because the owners suck at training. The best hunting/trialing dogs ive ever seen were almost ALL great in the house.

If i were to offer advise to the inexperianced someone looking to get a dog with a young family:

1a. BUY A FINISHED DOG.

1b. Pick a breed that is the best at what you do. If you duck hunt: Lab. If you pheasant hunt: Lab/Springer/Cocker. If you covey bird hunt: ESetter/Pointer/GSP/Brittney
2. Pick a Breeder that trials dogs on a major circut.
3. Get a real professional dog trainer who trials dogs.
4. Learn everything you can from the professional. Go to training days. Learn how to train.
5. Make sure the money you spent in training is not wasted when the dog gets home and your wife and kids undo it all.
 
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