Single Wall Condensation

[ianpadron]

Last night was the maiden voyage for my Seek Outside Cimarron. Set it up at 7,000 feet in a nice little meadow.

I kept the door open all afternoon and by the time I was ready to hit the hay, the inside of the shelter was already soaked. I spent 0 time in it during the day, moisture was presumably plant based.

I slept half the night with the zippers partly open, but was forced to close them when a nasty windstorm blew through. That same wind quickly turned the tent into my own personal car wash, whipping the condensation off the walls and all over my stuff.

Needless to say, by daybreak, I was soaked.

Looking for input on what could have been done better to alleviate or better yet, prevent this from happening.

My thoughts are these:

1) setting up over lush greenery in the summer is a bad idea, those plants are giving off moisture nonstop.

2) pitch the tarp higher with a bit of breathing room beneath.

3) add a bivy to the gear kit and keep my sleeping bag dry that way instead of just a ground cloth.

Thanks in advance!

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[Backpack Hunter]

Sounds like your on the right track.

 

[luke moffat]

Def pitch it higher.....air flow is a must for managing condensation. I don't understand why these companies don't offer adjustable guy lines on the stake out points along the bottom edge of the shelters to select your pitch from flush with the ground all the way up to 6-8" air gap like GoLite did on their Shangri-La tipi line and now Mytrailco.com does:
Pyramid 4 Shelter – My Trail Company

Just makes sense and much easier to manage moisture inside that way. In fact I feel a lot of people needing liners could get by without them much of the time if they'd simply pitch their shelters with some air gap for air movement.

As an added benefit you also end up with much more useable space on near the outer edges of the tent.

Not only that, but it also allows for adjusting for a more level and uniform pitch when pitching on rolling or uneven ground.

 

[ianpadron]

Def pitch it higher.....air flow is a must for managing condensation. I don't understand why these companies don't offer adjustable guy lines on the stake out points along the bottom edge of the shelters to select your pitch from flush with the ground.

Luke, thanks a ton for your input, I was hoping you'd chime in.

The pics are very helpful. Can you walk me through the process of guying it out like that? Does it change the required height of the center pole, or can I just attach my cordage directly to the stake gussets and give things a tug?



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[jmden]

A floor will help tremendously with this issue as well, but a design with a great deal of weatherproof airflow is always a large component of being comfortable in nearly any shelter...something that is lacking in most of these designs. A breathable inner all can be helpful too. Most every design is a compromise or works best in a certain type of situation, etc. So, you pack more weight to have a floor and/or large amount of weatherproof airflow, or you pack less weight and deal condensation more, etc. Pitching the tent so the walls are higher off the ground is great for airflow, wind driven rain greatly reducing your living space when you need ventilation most, bugs and other critters living in your living room, etc. to the point that your shelter doesn't feel like much of a shelter on occasion. Without an integral, bugproof floor you are definitely 'living with nature'. But, that weighs more. Pick you poison...

 

[wasatchcomm]

i wonder if their is a way to prop open the stove pipe hole, when not using it in nice weather, maybe it would be enough to allow moisture and heat to leave naturally and help with the condensation...

maybe put a stick or something in their next time and see if it will help
just a thought.....

 

[luke moffat]

Pitching the tent so the walls are higher off the ground is great for airflow, wind driven rain greatly reducing your living space when you need ventilation most, bugs and other critters living in your living room, etc. to the point that your shelter doesn't feel like much of a shelter on occasion. Without an integral, bugproof floor you are definitely 'living with nature'. But, that weighs more. Pick you poison...

I have to say that has not been my experience at all in all sorts of rain. Even pitched off the ground and with the wind whipping a 4-6" pitch VERY little rain is actually blown in beyond the plane of the edge of the shelter. What little does make it beyond the edge of the end only goes the first couple inches. This area doesn't have enough ceiling clearance to be of use to a person's living space. We normally store all our gear on the edges of the shelter where we can sit anyways. Especially in windy conditions we use our packs and other bulky items such as packrafts to somewhat block the gap on the windword side if we are really worried about it.

Just my experience, you seem to have experienced the opposite I guess.

 

[luke moffat]

Def pitch it higher.....air flow is a must for managing condensation. I don't understand why these companies don't offer adjustable guy lines on the stake out points along the bottom edge of the shelters to select your pitch from flush with the ground.

Luke, thanks a ton for your input, I was hoping you'd chime in.

The pics are very helpful. Can you walk me through the process of guying it out like that? Does it change the required height of the center pole, or can I just attach my cordage directly to the stake gussets and give things a tug?



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Likely easier to explain it over the phone. Shoot me your number via PM and I will talk ya through how I did it whether its right or not

 

[colonel00]

Luke, thanks a ton for your input, I was hoping you'd chime in.

The pics are very helpful. Can you walk me through the process of guying it out like that? Does it change the required height of the center pole, or can I just attach my cordage directly to the stake gussets and give things a tug?



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The pole height will be higher which is nice as it actually gives you more room inside as well. Here's a photo of how I have mine rigged up. Not the best but hopefully you can make it out. The tensioners I used are mounted with some webbing to the stake loops. I then have a run of cordage with a loop on the end for the stake. For a typical pitch, I have the guyout line about halfway through the tensioner. This allows me to have some play to tighten or loosen as necessary. Plenty of other ways to do it as well.

 

[Schaaf]

Slightly off topic but I'm on the verge of getting a 6 person SO tipi. Will the condensation be an issue for my down quilts or do I need to run a synthetic while using my tipi.

 

[colonel00]

I've only run down stuff and never really had any issues. A couple times you might get some drips but it's not going to soak your quilt. If you have that much condensation, you have a much bigger issue.

 

[Kevin Dill]

For colder weather camps I want my 8-man or Sawtooth pitched tight and contacting the ground. I don't think I have ever not had condensation on a moose or caribou hunt in September. Sometimes I wake up to frost inside. I use a liner in both and a stove in both as needed. I have seen what severe condensation can do and it can get far worse than many imagine. I weathered through a 5 day storm at 5,000 feet and the only thing that kept my gear from getting totally condensation-soaked was a liner. There was no dry wood and I didn't bring a stove. Nothing I tried could produce a drier interior, but keep in mind I was living through something akin to a tropical storm (though much colder) for many days with clouds, fog, heavy rain, high winds and eventually snow.

 

[greentimber]

I've found that an ultralight bivy is a must unless running a liner. The bivy is much lighter than the liner, so it gets the nod. Of course, bivies have their own set of issues to manage, but I want one to protect by sleeping bag, regardless.

 

[luke moffat]

I use a bivy when buggy when going solo. But a floorless shelter pitched with an air gap allows for a lot of circulation. Only time I feel I need a liner or bivy really is if I pitch the shelter tight to the ground. Even late season a 2-4" air gap goes a LONG ways for circulation. But I agree with green timber given the choice between a bivy and a liner I would go bivy everytime!

 

[reaper]

Lifting the shelter looks to help againts condensation but the gap doesnt sounds good in cold weather for,a liner will add more weight...i dont know what to do with my 4 man haha!!.I have cold weather here in QC, Canada.I will try your lifting solution luke this winter but i still not sure about the air gap...cold draft on me when sleeping=

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[luke moffat]

Lifting the shelter looks to help againts condensation but the gap doesnt sounds good in cold weather for,a liner will add more weight...i dont know what to do with my 4 man haha!!.I have cold weather here in QC, Canada.I will try your lifting solution luke this winter but i still not sure about the air gap...cold draft on me when sleeping=

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HAHA...for winter and camping in the snow I am sleeping in a 4 season double wall most of the time tent. I was mainly talking for spring through late fall with temps down to the teens for overnight lows as such. I don't do much winter camping in floorless shelters.

 

[Mike7]

I have had the same exact experiences as Luke. I use pyramid shelters with an air gap at the bottom and a top vent year round (not sure how much a top vent adds when the shelter is pitched up off of the ground, but it doesn't help at all seemingly if the shelter id pitched all of the way to the ground). I only take a bivy rarely. The bivy seems to be helpful when it is really windy & humid with temps almost to freezing, causing me to have the shelter pitched a little lower and then the wind shakes condensation off of the walls.

The line-loc 3's work great attached to your guyout points, because you can quickly walk around and pitch your shelter however you want (i.e. raise one side and lower the other, etc.).

As a good starting point for an average pitch of a pyramid. I start with the stakes about 1 foot away from the corners of the shelter when the shelter is stretched out on the ground. Depending on the slope of the pyramid, this will give you about 6" of increased height at the center pole and around the edges of the shelter.

 

[colonel00]

I guess to me, there is this conception that pitching a shelter down tight in colder weather will keep heat in. However, even with it tight to the ground, you still need to vent in some fashion to help with condensation don't you? Usually, vents are at the top and there goes all your heat. Sure, I've been in situations where a little breeze comes creeping under the tent but nothing too terrible. Unless you are running a stove/heater all night, you won't hold heat all that long in these thin walled shelter. Yeah, a draft would be a little annoying but that's why you are bundled up in your bag to sleep once the fire goes out, right?

 

[Mike7]

I have awakened before while winter camping with all of my shelter edge air gaps covered by snow. It is a little warmer not having any breeze whatsoever coming under the edges, but luckily also at those times, it is usually cold enough that any condensation that forms is ice and so not a problem. I usually just leave the snow in place around the windward side edges (it acts just like how Luke uses his gear/packraft), and then kick the snow away from the leeward side edges if I am up outside of the shelter.

 

[reaper]

HAHA...for winter and camping in the snow I am sleeping in a 4 season double wall most of the time tent. I was mainly talking for spring through late fall with temps down to the teens for overnight lows as such. I don't do much winter camping in floorless shelters.

Haa ok ...yeah i did a lot of -25C :

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