Puffy on the inside or puffy on the outside?

[LionHead]

Hey all,

Just finished my second hunting season this october. I'm still learning and figuring stuff out. Need some help on insulation philosophy. I'll have some coin to upgrade my clothing/insulation this winter.


My current setup has allowed me to get later into the year than last year, but im looking for an all season set up.
specifically more better weather protection later in the season.

Currently using
supernatural 140g mernio long sleeve
generic Polypro long johns
smartwool socks
5.11 Stryke pants
TAD reccon 100wt fleece
TNF thermoball jacket
OR revel rain jacket and pants (wind/rain )
HPG mountain serape (glassing jacket + sleeping bag multiplier)

I only added the fleece after snows fell, otherwise this is what i ran pre-season June to Closing weekend oct31

The last 2 weekends I managed to get out between snow storms and the temps ranged 28-60

The one problem I had was putting on enough insulation to keep me warm when stationary then overheating as it warmed up.

The 1st morning out after the snow stormpassed I literally wore everything listed to keep from shivering, but as the day warmed up and i hiked to a new vantage point i had I strip off all my top layers and even then the leggings where too warm. I ended up Stripping down and removing my leggins to keep cool and then stripped again to put em back on for the evening glassing session.

Adding/subtracting top layers is easy enough, but stripping to my birthday suit to don/doff leggings is a bit impractical.
wind chill was partly a concern as the stryke pants do nothing to cut the wind.

So ive got some hunting pants in mind, Kuiu or kryptek to midigate the wind/breathability issue on pants.

I'm already looking at light merino bottoms as it just breathes better than polypro, but am i gonna drop $80-$100 for better base layers bottom and still have to drop trouser midday to keep cool? What's the best option?

I had thought to just run the hunting pants commando and then invest in oversized puffy pants and jacket to wear over top like a belay jacket/pants. Anyone else doing this ?

Seems to me when I wore my puffy under my top jacket i just crushed the insulation, so i didnt get much warmth as i got a decrease in breathability which in turn trapped some warmth. So ive switched to the fleece as my main insulator beacuse it breathes well enough n the move that i could wear it almost all day. and only wore the puffy over top when stationary.

What say the better educated than i ?

 

[Sam Millard]

Hey all,

Just finished my second hunting season this october. I'm still learning and figuring stuff out. Need some help on insulation philosophy. I'll have some coin to upgrade my clothing/insulation this winter.


My current setup has allowed me to get later into the year than last year, but im looking for an all season set up.
specifically more better weather protection later in the season.

Currently using
supernatural 140g mernio long sleeve
generic Polypro long johns
smartwool socks
5.11 Stryke pants
TAD reccon 100wt fleece
TNF thermoball jacket
OR revel rain jacket and pants (wind/rain )
HPG mountain serape (glassing jacket + sleeping bag multiplier)

I only added the fleece after snows fell, otherwise this is what i ran pre-season June to Closing weekend oct31

The last 2 weekends I managed to get out between snow storms and the temps ranged 28-60

The one problem I had was putting on enough insulation to keep me warm when stationary then overheating as it warmed up.

The 1st morning out after the snow stormpassed I literally wore everything listed to keep from shivering, but as the day warmed up and i hiked to a new vantage point i had I strip off all my top layers and even then the leggings where too warm. I ended up Stripping down and removing my leggins to keep cool and then stripped again to put em back on for the evening glassing session.

Adding/subtracting top layers is easy enough, but stripping to my birthday suit to don/doff leggings is a bit impractical.
wind chill was partly a concern as the stryke pants do nothing to cut the wind.

So ive got some hunting pants in mind, Kuiu or kryptek to midigate the wind/breathability issue on pants.

I'm already looking at light merino bottoms as it just breathes better than polypro, but am i gonna drop $80-$100 for better base layers bottom and still have to drop trouser midday to keep cool? What's the best option?

I had thought to just run the hunting pants commando and then invest in oversized puffy pants and jacket to wear over top like a belay jacket/pants. Anyone else doing this ?

Seems to me when I wore my puffy under my top jacket i just crushed the insulation, so i didnt get much warmth as i got a decrease in breathability which in turn trapped some warmth. So ive switched to the fleece as my main insulator beacuse it breathes well enough n the move that i could wear it almost all day. and only wore the puffy over top when stationary.

What say the better educated than i ?

You have some good pieces there; the Strykes are one of my favorites, but IMO worthless for cold weather hunting. I like Kuiu Attacks for that, and with the zip vents, they can let you climb when you need to. They cut the wind pretty well. The HPG Serape is awesome for stationary long range hunting or glassing. One of the things we used to do for elk hunting, where we had to hike/climb hard before light, then sit still in cold temps., is carry extra polypro sets with us. Once we were done climbing, we would strip down while still warm, change into the dry set, then set up for the wait. While we are sitting there, we let the wet stuff air out. It definitely helped, and they're light enough to carry an extra set. I think you should add the Attacks and a dedicated puffy jacket, like the Kifaru LPP, or the Sitka Kelvin/Kelvin Lite. That would go a long way toward keeping you comfortable.

 

[LionHead]

Thanks Sam!!

Yea I dig the strykes they're comfy for summer/early fall use. I only wished i sized up to accommodate the base layer, it gets a little scrunchy with the extra material.

the HPG serape is a constant companion, However I made an executive decision to leave it in the truck on opening day to save a few lbs, which i regretted sorely when I was waiting for 1st light the next morning. It now lives in my pack 24/7.

The thermoball was ok in the summer as my only piece of insulation when it rarely got below 40f but after august i found out how lacking it is for any meaningful warmth. I'm a bit partial to Highlander pattern but the Kratos jacket appears to be cut/tailored for under the outer layer use, i had fogotten about Kif's LPP thanks for the reminder!

HAHA ok so im not the only one strippin out on the mountain !! i thought i was doing something wrong

 

[LBFowler]

it has to be pretty cold for me to use heavier then 200 merino leggings, and I run pretty cold. I think you are on the right track, you have to dress for the warmer temps on your under layers, maybe even consider 150 merino leggings.

I have some patagonia micropuff pants but I think I will actually be using the old USGI pant liners more:
http://stores.alleghenywholesale.com/genuine-us-army-military-m-65-m65-od-pant-trouser-liner-liners-new-unissued/

Almost as warm as the patagonia but cheaper and very quite. pretty easy to slip on over boots too. I encountered a lot of the 30*-35* slushy nasty weather this year so I am definitely overhauling my static layers for next year.

 

[LionHead]

it has to be pretty cold for me to use heavier then 200 merino leggings, and I run pretty cold. I think you are on the right track, you have to dress for the warmer temps on your under layers, maybe even consider 150 merino leggings.

I have some patagonia micropuff pants but I think I will actually be using the old USGI pant liners more:
.... pretty easy to slip on over boots too. I encountered a lot of the 30*-35* slushy nasty weather this year so I am definitely overhauling my static layers for next year.

Yes id like too keep the bottom base layers light maybe even ditch the base merino and reverse layer. Hunting pants >puffy pants > Rain pants, and add as conditions dictate. I heat up quickly on the move.

So i assume you'll be up sizing the USGI pant liners as to pull them on over top while stationary ?

 

[Scot E]

If I were you I would try no bottoms at all under your pants, even in cold weather. I hunted late season in 10 degree mornings and 20-25 degree days and was fine. It took me a long time to figure this out for me but if I wear insulation of any kind on my legs I get so hot it is ridiculous. I am miserable. I try to avoid sweating like the plague for different reasons, the smell in the early season and the risk of being wet and miserable in cold weather. For some reason I don't feel I get a lot of extra warmth by wearing them while sitting either. So I have just learned that I regulate temperature and sweating much better if I leave my legs bare under my pants. This changes your stripping down on the hill too. The upper body is just way easier to do multiple changes!

Also, get very used to making lots of clothes changes. If I don't get lazy I can keep pretty dry all day by just making lots of adjustments.

FWIW, I can wear merino, first lite, when very damp and not get chilled, especially if I add a fleece over the top and maybe a puffy on top while sitting. I wear my puffy as my outside layer unless it is raining or wet snow. It keeps your down away from your sweat and acts like a pretty decent wind block.

Two items that keep me warm much more than I thought they would are a neck gaiter and fleece beenie. For me they add more warmth to my layering system than 1 or 2 other tops and they are lighter and very easy to take on and off.

Good Luck!

 

[Mike7]

I agree with most of what everyone above has said, but don't forget to bring a foam pad to sit on. I use a thin light weight insulite pad for glassing (goes under my neoair pad at night for extra protection & R value, and gets folded up to sit on for glassing/sitting).

Personally, like Sam said above, I am plenty warm on the legs in just the attack pants for most of the year unless sitting a lot in temps <25 degrees. I have Montbell puffy pants that I put on over the Attacks rarely for sitting, and just when it is brutally cold, and thin Patagonia Capilene long johns that I will wear under the attacks for moving slowly just when it is very cold (like a recent archery mule deer hunt with 10-20 deg temps and 20 mph winds). The neck gaiter is great when it is really cold and windy, and I have a system of hats, as well as my outer shell hood that I can put on while sitting. I like having my shell large enough, that it doesn't compress my puffy when I put the puffy on under my the shell.

Good luck.

 

[Scot E]

another thing that works for me regarding warmth while sitting. I always carry a light weight set of rain gear. Using it over my pants and clothes while sitting is more than enough to help keep me warm and keeps me from bringing more sets of clothes with me. Learning to use what you have most efficiently is always better than packing extra stuff. That just usually takes some experimenting with what works and what doesn't

 

[LBFowler]

Yes id like too keep the bottom base layers light maybe even ditch the base merino and reverse layer. Hunting pants >puffy pants > Rain pants, and add as conditions dictate. I heat up quickly on the move.

So i assume you'll be up sizing the USGI pant liners as to pull them on over top while stationary ?

nope. Pretty common assumption but nearly all surplus items are made to work together at the same time so nearly all the puffy layers are already a size up (or two), sometimes I even have to size down on the outer layers to get them to fit like I want.
I think the "liners" are liners for an overpant so they where still made to fit over normal pants. I wear a "small long" in military sizing and the small long puffy pants go on fine even over boots.

 

[BroodBuster]

There's an old mountaineering saying the goes, "If your feet are cold put on your hat."

I good wool beanie goes a long way to retaining or shedding body heat. If i'm about to embark on a 2000' in 2 mile climb, no matter how cold I am, both my puffy vest and beanie or packed in an accessible spot. Once on top, often on a windy ridge or basin, no matter how hot I am I'll put on the puffy and beanie before I lose any body heat. Especially if I know I'm going to be sitting a while. It's sort of a dressing for where you are going to be or doing thing.

Pants can always be tricky. I tend to error heavy on the marino base but with a light pair of pants. But I suppose that perfect mix is different for everybody.

I'm still waiting for a high end pair of hunting pants with zip off legs which would be perfect for me!

 

[LionHead]

Thanks for all the responses Guys !

I think the "liners" are liners for an overpant so they where still made to fit over normal pants. I wear a "small long" in military sizing and the small long puffy pants go on fine even over boots.

Good to know!! since im XXL in most sizings and XL in Military pants, I was worried I wouldn't have anywhere to "size up"to. I'm gonna give those a shot and at that price its worth a try for the sake of science.

"If your feet are cold put on a hat

I totally agree

I guess I should have mentioned I have a hat system as well. Ball cap, a thin and thick beanie that could be layered if needed.

So I guess now Im Looking for a loose fit puffy jacket and a less restrictive shell For static times. My current setup seems like everything is fighting for 2nd layer position and that could be part of the issue. I can do base>fleece>shell or base>puffy>shell but Not all together without constriction which seems to lead to conductive heat loss

MIke7 - small foam pad... Check!
Didn't realize how effective it was till I forgot it one weekend.

Really appreciate the tips !

 

[Hootsma]

I get hot easily and quickly with any exertion. So I just tough it out for the first few minutes of hiking in with no long johns just to avoid the hassle of shedding them. Been doing this for training and hunting in the winter time for years. Just did a 4.75 mile ruck yesterday and it was 50 degrees and breezy and I wore the same clothes I would wear for a 95 degree summer day. The first 5 - 10 minutes I'm chilled then I'm comfortable the rest of the time and barely broke a sweat. Just bring something substantial to layer on once you stop.

Another alternative are the zip-off long johns from kuiu. My buddy ran those last year and they worked out well. Just drop your pants to your ankles while keeping your boots on and they zip right off. Looked pretty easy and efficient.

 

[LBFowler]

Another alternative are the zip-off long johns from kuiu. My buddy ran those last year and they worked out well. Just drop your pants to your ankles while keeping your boots on and they zip right off. Looked pretty easy and efficient.

that makes a lot more sense, I saw those but couldn't figure out why they put side zips on them. Not a bad idea now that I think about it.

 

[tttoadman]

There's an old mountaineering saying the goes, "If your feet are cold put on your hat."
I'm still waiting for a high end pair of hunting pants with zip off legs which would be perfect for me!

Columbia Silver Ridge Convertible Pants. Love these. Super light. They come with a nice removable belt that I use with all my other pants. $60 and you can catch these on steep and cheap for even less.

I only wear pants with cargo pockets. I am swapping my gloves, head band, and hat on and off all day to control my heat. I am a firm believer in this also.

 

[5MilesBack]

While hunting some of the later rifle seasons, I've been known to start out hiking with just base layers and my pants on even in the teens. Keeping moving, especially uphill keeps me warm (which is why I cover so much ground on these hunts). Then I carry insulation layers in or on my pack. When I get to where I want to be and slow down or stop, then I put on the heavier stuff to keep warm. Sometimes I even start a fire.

But I NEVER go without my merino base layers, even in 80 degree days archery hunting for elk. They keep the sweat away from my skin.