Painless(ful?) Load Prep (Precursor to Painless Load Development)

[HuntHarder]

4fps lower MV SD maybe. I’m saying that itself isn’t anything truly meaningful.






That’s a false equivalency. 4fps MV SD isn’t 0.6 MOA precision. It’s a nothing burger.





I didn’t go off on you- I asked a question, and then you responded with something like- “yeah, it won’t make a difference, but it gives me confidence”. To that I responded.

I don’t care how you load. I don’t care if you get great groups or bad groups- I don’t actually care if you get ammo that doesn’t feed or chamber. What I was responding to was the general drift if you will, back to silliness that doesn’t actually change anything- you aren’t missing an animal due to 4fps MV SD… but you might if conditions are crappy and you can’t chamber a round..
It is a reality that minimally sizing cases makes them less reliable in adverse conditions. There is a cost to sizing ammo minimally (I’m not even saying what you are doing is “minimum”) that was the point that I was trying to get across.


Read this thread and the others titled “painless” from the beginning, and watch how they slowly drift from “painless” to people complicating it… and making ammo that is less reliable.

So... set your dies up wrong and over bump the shoulder. Shorten your brass life. That makes sense.

 

[Formidilosus]

So... set your dies up wrong and over bump the shoulder. Shorten your brass life. That makes sense.

Yes, that’s exactly what I wrote.

 

[Clarktar]

Guys are worrying “losing” the yearly expenditure of a decent cup of coffee.

Think about this for a bit- you buy brass for $0.20 to $1.00 a piece. FFS- you can get 223 brass with a bullet- for .40 cents a piece right now, and 308win primed already for .40 cents.

So you shoot your .20 cent brass 5 times and throw it away- how much money are you actually spending a year on brass? And how much compared to primers, powder, and bullets?

If you’re a heavy shooter, $200-$300 a year in brass and cut the stupid stuff out. Your precision isn’t any better with Lapua than it is starline. Why in the nine-hells people act like brass is this life altering commodity that they kill themselves overs trying to save is insanity. I’ve watched people lose their minds trying to find a piece of brass in the snow while a wounded animal is still in front of them trying to get away. It’s just brass.

Until is ADG 6 UM head stamped brass and it's the first time it's been shot. Haha

 

[Formidilosus]

Until is ADG 6 UM head stamped brass and it's the first time it's been shot. Haha

Haha.

 

[HighUintas]

That's kind of why I want to move to 6cm. Lots of cheap brass available. Lower growth design. Load, shoot, lose some and don't worry about it, don't trim.

If 6um or 6prc was in the same boat brass wise I'd probably do one

 

[philcox]

This is where I am having a hard time understanding. I get maybe two firings of my 6.5 Creedmoor brass before it is greater than 1.92. Maybe I’m doing something wrong, I’m using my resizing die as RCBS said, and what I’m doing there’s no way I would get five reloads out of my brass before it was over spec. Maybe I’m missing some major concept here. That is why I am trying to do a “not max” bump. Maybe I regret it, hope I find out over this season of practice.


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[HuntHarder]

This is where I am having a hard time understanding. I get maybe two firings of my 6.5 Creedmoor brass before it is greater than 1.92. Maybe I’m doing something wrong, I’m using my resizing die as RCBS said, and what I’m doing there’s no way I would get five reloads out of my brass before it was over spec. Maybe I’m missing some major concept here. That is why I am trying to do a “not max” bump. Maybe I regret it, hope I find out over this season of practice.


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Type of brass? On my 6.5 cm, I got 3 shots before they were right at max length. Lapua brass, being pushed pretty hard.

 

[TimberHunter]

Read this thread and the others titled “painless” from the beginning, and watch how they slowly drift from “painless” to people complicating it… and making ammo that is less reliable.

[mention]philcox [/mention] can you adjust the title to, Painful load prep?


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[jedi7]

A bit inside the necks. The cases are laid down, and I spray at a slight angle into the case mouth and on the case.





Can’t say it’s ever occurred that I’ve had pressure issues. Feeding without fail or fuss is way high on my priority list, so the moment a case or round is funky- it gets tossed.

[mention]Formidilosus [/mention]are you concerned with case lube being a contaminant inside the brass or does it not have a significant impact on performance in your experience?


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[Formidilosus]

[mention]Formidilosus [/mention]are you concerned with case lube being a contaminant inside the brass or does it not have a significant impact on performance in your experience?


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Not with Hornady one shot.

 

[philcox]

Type of brass? On my 6.5 cm, I got 3 shots before they were right at max length. Lapua brass, being pushed pretty hard.

Lapua SRP and Peterson LRP.


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[Harvey_NW]

4fps lower MV SD maybe. I’m saying that itself isn’t anything truly meaningful.

It was 4fps in that ONE sample from a small caliber and case capacity, it could be more drastic in a bigger case. My point was that it made an improvement regardless, so to me it's worth taking 5 minutes to properly setup a sizing die, and I would have more confidence shooting the better load.

That’s a false equivalency. 4fps MV SD isn’t 0.6 MOA precision. It’s a nothing burger.

I wasn't equating 4fps SD to a .6 improvement in precision, I know better than that. It was a separate example about having confidence in a better load, even if it doesn't make a huge difference in reality.

I didn’t go off on you- I asked a question, and then you responded with something like- “yeah, it won’t make a difference, but it gives me confidence”. To that I responded.

I don’t care how you load. I don’t care if you get great groups or bad groups- I don’t actually care if you get ammo that doesn’t feed or chamber. What I was responding to was the general drift if you will, back to silliness that doesn’t actually change anything- you aren’t missing an animal due to 4fps MV SD… but you might if conditions are crappy and you can’t chamber a round..
It is a reality that minimally sizing cases makes them less reliable in adverse conditions. There is a cost to sizing ammo minimally (I’m not even saying what you are doing is “minimum”) that was the point that I was trying to get across.


Read this thread and the others titled “painless” from the beginning, and watch how they slowly drift from “painless” to people complicating it… and making ammo that is less reliable.

Your points are well received, I just don't understand how me saying I would have more confidence in a better load by taking 5 minutes to setup a sizing die warranted "well why don't you do 27 other trick moves that don't matter". I have read the threads, learned from them, and applied a lot of it to my own loading methods, but if there's a step that takes minimal time and effort to get a measurable improvement, I'm doing it.

 

[jedi7]

Not with Hornady one shot.

Thank you!


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[Formidilosus]

so to me it's worth taking 5 minutes to properly setup a sizing die,

This is what I’m getting at. You keep alluding to minimal shoulder numb being “proper”, or “better”. Maybe it is “better” for one aspect, but it isn’t better for feed and function no matter what. That is why I responded at all, and why I keep doing so; there is a cost for minimal shoulder bump sizing- it isn’t “free”.

Properly setup for what? Without question, setting up the die for minimal shoulder bump is not proper if your goal is max probability that a round will chamber and fire in all conditions.

Which do you think will have an issue first in adverse conditions?

1) Ammo that is tighter in the chamber with less room?

Or

2) Ammo that is looser in the chamber, but still safe with more room?



Again- I’m not saying not to do it. I’m not saying it doesn’t offer something. I am saying that there is a price to it- there is a price to everything. And when we write, say, or do things we should recognize and acknowledge the potential cost of it.
“Form” isn’t having this back and forth on minimally bumping shoulders in reloads because he’s lazy, or because he’s never done it. He’s probably having it- because he sees 200,000 to 300,000 rounds a year fired in all conditions- and sees what fails and what causes those failures.

 

[Jimbee]

This is what I’m getting at. You keep alluding to minimal shoulder numb being “proper”, or “better”. Maybe it is “better” for one aspect, but it isn’t better for feed and function no matter what. That is why I responded at all, and why I keep doing so; there is a cost for minimal shoulder bump sizing- it isn’t “free”.

Properly setup for what? Without question, setting up the die for minimal shoulder bump is not proper if your goal is max probability that a round will chamber and fire in all conditions.

Which do you think will have an issue first in adverse conditions?

1) Ammo that is tighter in the chamber with less room?

Or

2) Ammo that is looser in the chamber, but still safe with more room?



Again- I’m not saying not to do it. I’m not saying it doesn’t offer something. I am saying that there is a price to it- there is a price to everything. And when we write, say, or do things we should recognize and acknowledge the potential cost of it.
“Form” isn’t having this back and forth on minimally bumping shoulders in reloads because he’s lazy, or because he’s never done it. He’s probably having it- because he sees 200,000 to 300,000 rounds a year fired in all conditions- and sees what fails and what causes those failures.

How much shoulder bump would you recommend to ensure chambering and function in adverse conditions while still being safe? Does it vary with cartridge? Does a "water test" indicate reloads should function safely and reliably? TIA

 

[HuntHarder]

How many case head separations have you seen with brass that has been stretched, over worked, pushed beyond it's limits? When this happens, often times part of the brass or all the brass minus a small chunk stay in the chamber. .002-.003 is where my brass gets bumped.

 

[Harvey_NW]

This is what I’m getting at. You keep alluding to minimal shoulder numb being “proper”, or “better”. Maybe it is “better” for one aspect, but it isn’t better for feed and function no matter what. That is why I responded at all, and why I keep doing so; there is a cost for minimal shoulder bump sizing- it isn’t “free”.

Properly setup for what? Without question, setting up the die for minimal shoulder bump is not proper if your goal is max probability that a round will chamber and fire in all conditions.

By "properly" I meant by a process with measurable consistency, not the RCBS/Hornady setup video to just run the sizing die in until it hits the shellholder and the handle cams over at the top of the stroke, and you have no idea you're crushing shoulders back .012" and will get case head separation in 3 firings. I learned that one the hard way so I know there's a proper way to setup a die.

What's optimal setback then?

 

[MontyMontana]

When will the "painless" portion be posted?

 

[HuntHarder]

When will the "painless" portion be posted?

If setting up a die properly is painful for you, you might need a new hobby.

 

[wapitibob]

I bump 2-3 and have since I learned the hard way that following the RCBS instructions was bumping shoulders too far and a cpl dozen cases had head cracks. I now set my dies to have contact but I use competition shell holders and set the shoulder bump that way.
If I hunted in adverse conditions, I might bump more, might, but I don't even hunt in the rain, been there, you guys can have all that.