OTC/DIY hunting in an Outfitters territory & Guiding ethics

[rokclmb]

I'd like to see what everyone's opinions are on hunting in an Outfitters territory as a DIY/OTC hunter. Below is my only experience:

In the area I hunt there's an Outfitter that operates multiple camps. My first season ended without an outfitter/guide encounter, though we did see several hunters on horseback from a distance (maybe it was them?).

This past season, we ran into the same guide/clients on two different days in different locations (1 mile apart). The first encountered was quite aggravating, as the guide ran over us while we were set up on elk and chased the bulls we had (at one point within 5 yards) basically off the mtn trying to get their clients a shot. The second encounter wasn't nearly as intense and we exchanged a short but pleasant conversation.

I'm basically new to elk hunting (2 seasons) and so I'm not all that familiar with the overall dynamics between outfitters and DIY hunters. While I certainly understand its their "territory" and their clients pay a lot of money to be there, I don't see where they should be "allowed" to disregard other hunters in their pursuit. In both of our encounters, we were in position ahead of the guide (which we take a little pride in . I will say that these encounters were early in our hunt and we didn't run into them or anyone else for that matter the last 4 or 5 days (though we did get into elk on several more occasions). Perhaps they filled their tags??

This experience won't keep me from hunting this area and I don't have any hard feelings over it. I'd like to hear what peoples opinions are on the interactions and ethics of guides from their experience.

 

[Back Country Hunter 2]

When I elk hunt I try to get away from people as much as possible. I know the wrangler of the outfitter who runs camps in the area that I bow hunt elk. If I'm by myself (90% of the time) and fill my tag, I will call the wrangler and have him help me pack it out. I know where his camps are and I try to avoid being too close to where they hunt. I have never seen them out in the field. I try to do that on purpose. The outfitter is fairly successful up there and his camps fill their tags consistently, so being relatively close gives me a good opportunity to get into some elk. Keep in mind the guides job is to do everything he can to help fill his clients tag. They get a tip at the end of the hunt, so some guides will do anything to get their client to fill his tag. My advise is to find their camps (they have to register it) and use that knowledge to your advantage. If they know you on somewhat of a personal level I would think they would be less likely to screw up your stalk on purpose. At least I think any decent human being would.

 

[RoJo]

On public land in AZ, guides do NOT have rights to territories or get special privileges. They are not allowed to post signs barring other hunters from entering a specific area, although some have tried it. Any hunter with a license and tag has as much right to hunt any spot on public land as any other. It really comes down to common courtesy. If you walk in to a water hole and another hunter is already there, leaving and hunting elsewhere is just the right thing to do. By the same token, if you are sitting a water hole and a guide/outfitter comes in and tries to intimidate you into leaving when you were there first, you have every right to tell him to go pound sand.

 

[Ghost]

Heck years ago I shot a bull directly above an outfitters camp. Its your land as well as his, Id hunt were the elk are. Some outfitters cover so much territory it would be tough to know where they are. As for the running an elk off I was working, if I knew he knowingly did that!! There would be words!!!

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

I like conversations like this as over the years guides and Outfitters have started to get a bad rep. From occurrences like the OP. There is times where accidents happen especially in bow season when there is no blaze I have personally walked onto a hunter that was just camped out as I was stalking an elk. Although he had no idea the bull was behind him and I had been working the bull all the way up the draw.
But it's not an Outfitters territory it is still everyone's territory, as an outfitter when we meet guys on the mountain we try and talk to them, be pleasant spread our business. But we also try to help them, we've had Guys camp a couple hundred yards from our camp. We ended up getting our clients hooked up with them and all 8 of them ended up meeting up every evening to talk and finally put a game plan together to fill some tags. Personally I like that relationship with my clients and other hunters.
On the guiding end I try and encourage my guides to be faithful to other hunters, if they weren't in position and someone else was they don't go for the animal they were beat, and if the client throws a fit then it is what it is but I instill that we are all sportsman. Just because my client paid doesn't mean he is more deserving of that animal. I also stress to my clients that we hunt public land I can't guarantee to never see another hunter, I can't guarantee a harvest.
The only time an outfitter can kick you out is if you are camped in his permitted camp site, we are required to place our camp in that spot, therefore if you're in it we can ask you to move. That's the only time an outfitter "controls" a spot, yes we may pay for our permit area but it's still public land. We just have to fight off illegal Outfitters and packers in our permit.
If you are hunting inside an Outfitters permit give the outfitter a call, get a personal relationship going with them, me personally I like to know where the DIY guys are, I might put clients in a different camp, I can keep my guides to a different area that kind of stuff. I want you guys to be successful as well and have before worked with DIY guys to set up a good hunt for both my clients and them.

If you guys ever hunt my area and have a problem with one of my guides or clients please let me know. I don't like that bad blood going around

 

[Back Country Hunter 2]

I like conversations like this as over the years guides and Outfitters have started to get a bad rep. From occurrences like the OP. There is times where accidents happen especially in bow season when there is no blaze I have personally walked onto a hunter that was just camped out as I was stalking an elk. Although he had no idea the bull was behind him and I had been working the bull all the way up the draw.
But it's not an Outfitters territory it is still everyone's territory, as an outfitter when we meet guys on the mountain we try and talk to them, be pleasant spread our business. But we also try to help them, we've had Guys camp a couple hundred yards from our camp. We ended up getting our clients hooked up with them and all 8 of them ended up meeting up every evening to talk and finally put a game plan together to fill some tags. Personally I like that relationship with my clients and other hunters.
On the guiding end I try and encourage my guides to be faithful to other hunters, if they weren't in position and someone else was they don't go for the animal they were beat, and if the client throws a fit then it is what it is but I instill that we are all sportsman. Just because my client paid doesn't mean he is more deserving of that animal. I also stress to my clients that we hunt public land I can't guarantee to never see another hunter, I can't guarantee a harvest.
The only time an outfitter can kick you out is if you are camped in his permitted camp site, we are required to place our camp in that spot, therefore if you're in it we can ask you to move. That's the only time an outfitter "controls" a spot, yes we may pay for our permit area but it's still public land. We just have to fight off illegal Outfitters and packers in our permit.
If you are hunting inside an Outfitters permit give the outfitter a call, get a personal relationship going with them, me personally I like to know where the DIY guys are, I might put clients in a different camp, I can keep my guides to a different area that kind of stuff. I want you guys to be successful as well and have before worked with DIY guys to set up a good hunt for both my clients and them.

If you guys ever hunt my area and have a problem with one of my guides or clients please let me know. I don't like that bad blood going around

I wish every owner of an outfit has an attitude like yours!

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Even though I'm an outfitter by trade, I'm a sportsman by hobby. I didnt get into this business to get rich I got into it to help people with hunting, plus I love the stock aspect of it, and being outdoors 90% of the year. If more Outfitters had the same mindset we wouldn't have a bad rep.
The only time I do have problems is with illegal Outfitters and illegal Outfitters in my permit area. After all this is my business and that is money out of my pocket. But other hunters may be a bit of money out of my pocket, but We've actually had several guys over the years go from full DIY to drop camps with us, and usually the beginning of hat relationship was exchanging some hellos in the parking lot, and then meeting on the trail. Some went from hellos in the lot, to packing out a harvest, to a drop camp.
I just never seen the point of being a mean guy to people because they hunted near my hunters. But in a way I do somewhat ask for the same return of respect when it comes to my clients on an animal. We have never had a problem with that but most guys somewhat know us in the area. Now past employees ya had some trouble with that one

 

[elkyinzer]

My lone trip to Colorado we ran into a wrangler carrying supplies into a drop camp up in a drainage. All he said to us, rather aggressively was, "we have guys up there already" as he passed us on the trail. We said, "that's lovely", and continued on our way. We were three miles downstream from the head of the drainage and 3 miles back in the Wilderness so we didn't feel as though we were exactly crashing the guys' camp. We never saw that guy or his clients again but were peeved by his demeanor. Ran into another wrangler from the same outfit later in the week and he was a standup guy and even gave us some pointers on elk patterns in that area which helped us out.

That my experience, I'd say it's a mixed bag as to which reactions you are going to get. I guess I can understand how frustrated the guides must feel that their clients roll in with high expectations thinking they are going on the hunt of a lifetime and they are supposed to get these dudes on elk in highly pressured areas that can be reached with a little work

 

[406]

I treat them like anyone else. I would never knowingly roll through somebody else's set up and apologize the few times I have. I share information within reason. I help if they're having trouble and have loaned gear.

I expect the same from them.

I'm always amazed when I'm miles back and somebody wants to camp right next to me. And I get genuinely pissed when it's obvious someone is following me in because they don't know the area. Make your own adventures and leave me to mine...

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

I will a lot of times let guys know if I have guys in but I try and be nice about it. And will usually let the guys have an idea of where my guys will be hunting so they can work around that or use the info. I will even encourage the guys to stop into camp and meet with my hunters.

 

[KurtR]

I hunted an area in Idaho and we saw the outfitter packing with horses in he stopped and talked and gave us some good info. He was going in farther than we were so no problems was a hell of a nice guy.

 

[Nomad]

I've hunted 77 in the Weminuche on an OTC archery tag the last 2 years, and also back in 2012. Stopped and talked with an outfitter on his way down the mountain 2 years ago after dropping off his guys, who were only deer hunting. He gave me some pointers and advice which were very helpful and got me into elk. I'm probably going to use their services in the future, if not this year. That's my only real experience in 3 seasons (4 trips).

 

[xziang]

My advise is to find their camps (they have to register it) and use that knowledge to your advantage.

I didn't know they had to register where they plan on putting up their camps.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Ya in Colorado we are basically told where our camp goes, the USFS has to know where our camps are so that they can check for any problems, violations,

 

[jmez]

I look at it the same as I would a DIY guy. It is the Outfitter's territory to outfit on, not to control. You have as much right as he and his clients and vice versa. I would try to stay out of their way and hope they would extend me the same courtesy.

Like most everything there are good ones and bad ones. We had quite a bit of trouble with one on the Thoroughfare where we used to hunt. Had problems every single year and the guy was a first class ahole. Have one where we currently hunt in MT and he's a nice guy and I talk to him every time I see him or his guides. We exchange info and where we are going to be hunting. If I know they are in an area I don't go there. They return the favor. We both do what we can to stay our of each other's way. It is actually beneficial to both of us.

You can usually tell pretty quick if it is going to amicable or not. If not then just stay away from them only going to lead to a confrontation and no one wins.

 

[Muledeerfanatic]

Here in western Wyoming there is literally an outfitter in every drainage so you will see them on most any hunt in good game country. It can get annoying but I don't pay much attention to them

 

[RoJo]

Thankfully the majority of guides and outfitters are good, honorable people. Sadly, the rotten apples sure leave a bad taste. One in particular comes to mind whose name would probably raise the hackles of more than a few AZ hunters after over a decade...but I will leave it at that.

 

[Beendare]

I bump into outfitters every year in the backcountry. I'm respectful and usually just go a different direction but there are some real dicks out there guiding. They act like they own the NF. One guy in the Medicine bow a couple years ago accused us of stealing his horses! Yeah, right...I have them right here in my jacket pocket.

I generally don't like stupid...but its even worse to blame others for your own stupidity.

 

[Hayguide]

I have ran into other hunters, while on drop camps. They are always nice, it public. My drop operator in 75 is great and tells everyone- he doesn't own the public land. I think it could be newby wranglers maybe that would act that way, but I haven't seen that myself. Maybe guided hunts are different-I just do drops. most guides and outfitters that have been around a while know that talk like that isn't good for business or the clients that are with him.

 

[LongWayAround]

I know of three outfitter camps in one of the units I hunt. I've never run into the guys while hunting though. Once I camp upon a drop camp illegally setup on state trust land. The next season I met the local warden looking for them in the same area. Last year, we ran into them setting up camp because they were running a chainsaw and we went to investigate because it seemed to be one the stl ground. We didn't feel like talking so we just took a peak and walked away. It was irritating to be five miles in and see some jack wagons in "western attire" running saws where we intended to hunt.