One Copper Bullet One Kill…

[B_Reynolds_AK]

So they say. I’ll leave this here for discussion.

 

[JohnB]

That's cool as a way to get folks to try out copper. I know they are ballistically & terminally inferior to lead bullets but having watched an eagle grab one of the chukar I shot that soared on me before I recovered I felt better that I was shooting non-tox.

 

[Ringbill27]

So if I buy a $40 box of ammo will I get $80 back?

I like copper but I’ll make money.

Although I’m not a licensed hunter with an Alaska mailing address. Seems kinda scammy to me.

 

[MThuntr]

So if I buy a $40 box of ammo will I get $80 back?
I like copper but I’ll make money.

Says $40/box up to $80 open to AK addresses

 

[roadrunner]

For discussion...?

 

[wind gypsy]

I’m not sure some of the sheep hunters wouldn’t be happy about some eagles getting lead poisoning..

 

[huntnful]

There is nothing “high performance” about copper. I don’t think these types of adds/campaigns are a good thing whatsoever. Blowing things out of proportion in order to make a huge change over a small issue. Especially with the “lead keeps on killing” shit. Give me a break.

 

[sdupontjr]

There is nothing “high performance” about copper. I don’t think these types of adds/campaigns are a good thing whatsoever. Blowing things out of proportion in order to make a huge change over a small issue. Especially with the “lead keeps on killing” shit. Give me a break.

This is just like when we were duck hunting in the late 80's early 90's and the mandate for steel shot. Claims were made in Louisiana that the ducks were picking up lead eating them, thus killing them. What we found was that Lead knocked their aZZ off stone cold dead, while the steel didn't hit with enough THUMP so the birds would fly off then die, where there was no recovery. Then the push for a denser product like Tungsten shot.

 

[Smtn10pt]

That would take the sting out of my 95$ a box 338 Rum ammo

 

[Macintosh]

I guess Im not that twisted up about it either way. It is indisputable that raptors eat gutpiles, and with fragmenting lead bullets those gutpiles contain lead fragments that kill said raptors. Copper ammo is unpopular on this site because of long range hunting and the better effectiveness of fragmenting lead at low impact velocities, but unlike steel shot in the 1980’s which was a mandate of an unknown product, copper has been a known entity for many decades and is proven to work fine for the 99+% of hunters that dont need terminal performance past 400 yards. If a voluntary effort like this comes along because its important enough for some people, Im all for it because as much as people dont like it the realistic alternative is a mandate. I say good on them, and if some people try copper as a result of this it wont have any negative consequences.

 

[TaperPin]

I remember the 1980’s when we all thought there’s no way a waterfowl non-toxic shot mandate would actually go into effect. I have no doubt lead bullets will eventually be banned across the board once California has a shred of evidence it has made a difference there - improperly presented statistics will convince politicians of some cause/effect relationship when there is none.

I’m not too worried since I’ve hunted a number of years with copper bullets - they aren’t my favorite, but they work just fine.

 

[roadrunner]

I guess Im not that twisted up about it either way. It is indisputable that raptors eat gutpiles, and with fragmenting lead bullets those gutpiles contain lead fragments that kill said raptors. Copper ammo is unpopular on this site because of long range hunting and the better effectiveness of fragmenting lead at low impact velocities, but unlike steel shot in the 1980’s which was a mandate of an unknown product, copper has been a known entity for many decades and is proven to work fine for the 99+% of hunters that dont need terminal performance past 400 yards. If a voluntary effort like this comes along because its important enough for some people, Im all for it because as much as people dont like it the realistic alternative is a mandate. I say good on them, and if some people try copper as a result of this it wont have any negative consequences.

Distance is irrelevant as long as you have the impact velocity for the bullet to perform properly.

 

[RockAndSage]

If lead keeps killing...

...then why aren't our Civil War battlefields a desolate wasteland?


(Answer: lead encapsulates itself in an oxide coating - and only a few scavenger birds seem to have stomach acids strong enough to really get ingested lead chunks from gut piles broken down enough to not just largely pass through)

 

[ElPollo]

I was a copper mono person for years and was never happy with the performance. Switched back to lead a few years ago, but plan to try the DRT tungsten-core fragmenting bullets this fall on some whitetail does. If I can find a reasonable non-lead bullet for killing, I would switch. Just haven’t found one yet.

 

[Macintosh]

Distance is irrelevant as long as you have the impact velocity for the bullet to perform properly.

Yes, and Im also intentionally making a easy to understand generalization that holds true most of the time for most all cartridges, in order to not get into the ballistic weeds that really just distract from the point, ie 400 yards is within a few yards of where most factory loaded cartridges with traditional copper monos drop below a reasonable velocity threshold to ensure they perform as expected, and its also past the range where most game is taken, and also past the range where most people have any business shooting at critters. Some may be longer, some may be shorter, some bullets may have a different threshold…but theyre mostly very close, and the point doesnt change, ie copper works fine for the vast majority of hunters, and the rest is all ballistic masturbation and wishful thinking, and just about anything voluntary is better than anything mandatory.

 

[yfarm]

The key here is ingested lead not as foreign bodies from a gsw.

 

[Thegman]

I’m not sure some of the sheep hunters wouldn’t be happy about some eagles getting lead poisoning..

I had this exact conversation with someone yesterday. We were talking about his sheep hunt and he was using copper bullets in part not to harm golden eagles. I said a lead bullet sounds like it might be a win-win for a sheep hunter.

I'm still a little skeptical about how much effect lead bullets actually have on raptors (and other birds). Bald eagles here hit every moose kill in the area in the fall. They feed on kills all year, way more than golden eagles do, and there's certainly no shortage of Bald eagles, or ravens, or magpies, or...

We had a conversation about sick Golden eagles picked up with lead fragments in their digestive system. The problem is that perhaps almost every eagle, including perfectly healthy eagles, have lead fragments in their digestive system. It may be that's not the actual cause of their illness or it's more nuanced than lead/no lead (?). Maybe that's been tested already, I don't know.

 

[HuntHarder]

Arizona has been doing this for 20 years. The goal was to stop the California Condors from digesting lead. Not sure I buy the whole Premise but I will say the copper Barnes bullets absolutely kill. They have been harder to get an accurate load for me, but the performance is plenty good enough to kill.

 

[roadrunner]

Yes, and Im also intentionally making a easy to understand generalization that holds true most of the time for most all cartridges, in order to not get into the ballistic weeds that really just distract from the point, ie 400 yards is within a few yards of where most factory loaded cartridges with traditional copper monos drop below a reasonable velocity threshold to ensure they perform as expected, and its also past the range where most game is taken, and also past the range where most people have any business shooting at critters. Some may be longer, some may be shorter, some bullets may have a different threshold…but theyre mostly very close, and the point doesnt change, ie copper works fine for the vast majority of hunters, and the rest is all ballistic masturbation and wishful thinking, and just about anything voluntary is better than anything mandatory.

Is it safe to assume then that the "challenge" is for what you point out to being normal max distance for a copper bullet?

You mention the unpopularity of copper on this site because of long-range hunting, but not everyone on this site engages in long-range hunting. I would speculate it's unpopular amongst a particular crowd...

"Ballistic masturbation"?

 

[Jason Snyder]

I think people confuse having “plenty of eagles” with there is no issue. Not exactly data driven.

I won’t debate for a minute there is ballistic difference at longer ranges.