Need help - Shoulder bumping inconsistency issues

[EastHumboldt]

Up until recently I’ve just been full length sizing, trimming, and loading. I’ve read that full length sizing every time can reduce case life, and I wasn’t happy with the consistency of bullet seating.

Next I tried this process to hopefully decrease the amount I’m working the brass, and achieve longer case life.: Annealing once fired cases and then I neck sized only Lee collet die, to get more consistent bullet seating. This worked fine, but after two firings many of the cases are showing a hard bolt close.

After some homework here and elsewhere this is the new plan: to bump the shoulders .003 using a Redding body die, and then size the necks using a Lee collet die. I lubed and put 20 once fired annealed cases through the Redding body die (which doesn’t size the neck at all, just the case sides and shoulders.). Using a Hornady comparator I got the following results, ranging from a bump of .003 to .010. I wrote down the amount each case was bumped in thousandths, all the cases were measured with the primers knocked out.




Here’s my press and the empty die box. To bump I’m putting them in the die giving it a firm pump, rotating the case 1/2 turn, repeat.




So what am I doing wrong?

 

[Axlrod]

Your bolt issues are caused by neck sizing only.
You can get the very best results by setting your full length/bushing size die, so the striped bolt will just fall shut. Brass life issues are mostly primer pockets getting loose- annealing will not change this. Annealing and neck sizing will not give you more consistent bullet seating.

 

[HighUintas]

Up until recently I’ve just been full length sizing, trimming, and loading. I’ve read that full length sizing every time can reduce case life, and I wasn’t happy with the consistency of bullet seating.

Next I tried this process to hopefully decrease the amount I’m working the brass, and achieve longer case life.: Annealing once fired cases and then I neck sized only Lee collet die, to get more consistent bullet seating. This worked fine, but after two firings many of the cases are showing a hard bolt close.

After some homework here and elsewhere this is the new plan: to bump the shoulders .003 using a Redding body die, and then size the necks using a Lee collet die. I lubed and put 20 once fired annealed cases through the Redding body die (which doesn’t size the neck at all, just the case sides and shoulders.). Using a Hornady comparator I got the following results, ranging from a bump of .003 to .010. I wrote down the amount each case was bumped in thousandths, all the cases were measured with the primers knocked out.

View attachment 877376


Here’s my press and the empty die box. To bump I’m putting them in the die giving it a firm pump, rotating the case 1/2 turn, repeat.


View attachment 877377

So what am I doing wrong?

There are three different things that I found to have the greatest influence on shoulder bump consistency.

Lube - how much and how dry
Lube in the die - how much how old how dry
Brass anneal consistency - if your method sucks it's better to not anneal
Dwell time - how long you hold it in the die
Press quality - I was using just a Lee hand press for years and I suddenly shrunk my extreme spread on shoulder bump to 0.001 when I switched to an rcbs rebel

I think you're probably hurting consistency by body sizing twice.

0.002 extreme spread is not bad.... You wouldn't be able to shoot the difference if your bullet and powder is good.

 

[HighUintas]

Also, get a Forster standard FL die and have them hone the neck so you don't over work the neck. That will give you real straight brass and less case growth

 

[TaperPin]

I’d say brass uniformity, dwell time and press stiffness are pretty big factors in uniform shoulder push back.

Case life is an interesting thing. At high enough pressure to start thinning ordinary run of the mill name brand case webs to the point a ring starts to appear on the exterior after ten or so reloads and neck sizing, primer pockets are usually intact. Slightly higher pressure and primer pockets loosen up quicker and are the point of failure. Harder brass like Lapua sure seems more difficult to judge without measuring case heads since it handles pressure so much better.

For the most part I use FL dies backed off essentially neck sizing. I like your idea of using the body die, although I haven’t used mine much. I’ve heard of shooters, even F class shooters, using the body die every two or three reloads, essentially only when bolt lift pressure becomes noticeably firmer.

I like how Redding dies have knurled locking rings with each knurling groove representing .001” of die movement. Each full turn of a 14 thread per inch thread is .071” and there are about that many grooves, at least on my Redding 6 br body die. I haven’t counted the knurling on other Redding dies because it makes my eyes cross, but it seems to be done on purpose.

 

[EastHumboldt]

Thanks for the replies and tips everyone. Lots to think about and experiment with, which is what I was hoping to get out of this thread.

I realize that neck sizing only is not going to shorten the case shoulder and relieve the pressure on the bolt, which is why I bought body dies.

My annealing process: I’m using a burst fire, which just uses timing to rotate the case in the flame long enough to get the first hint of a dull red glow on the case neck. I’m doing it in near total darkness so I can see the glow. I’m letting the flame impinge on the neck, shoulder, and about the first 1/2” below the shoulder. I think it’s about as consistent as I’m gonna get without spending 2k on an Amp annealer.

At this point I plan to try making my lube process and press process more consistent. I’ll quit double sizing. I’m not ready to chuck my Lee press yet, but we’ll see….

I’ll report back when and if I get some of this worked out.

 

[RagnCajn]

All good advice I've seen so far. Ill add two things.

Try going back to your full length die and work it down until you are bumping the shoulders back about 0.002 and see if it is more consistent than your body die. No good reason why it should be, just more data to help figure it out.

Other thing I notice is the Lee press which in and of itself may not be an issue but I'm a little suspect of the breech lock bushing system of theirs. I have a very small amount of experience with that system and it doesn't give me tons of confidence in consistency at this level. My gut tells me any quarter turn interrupted thread connection that is under that kind of force would need to be a steel on steel connection and made to very precise tolerances. Thats not what Lee's system is about. Seems great for 95% of what reloaders need but I dont know if you can expect match level consistency from that connection/system. Others may have proof otherwise though.

 

[pbroski]

Get a Redding competition shellholder set. They will eliminate press slop and give the most consistent shoulder bump possible. Also if you wanted, you could upgrade to a steel breech lock bushing - part number 90600.

 

[ddowning]

Lanolin/alcohol lube and stopping for approximately 3 seconds at the top of the press stroke has made the shoulder bump really consistent for me (+/- .001"). Make sure to keep the die clean. Annealing will change the die setting to achieve the correct shoulder bump, but only by a couple thousandths. I only anneal every third firing. I prefer to use a full length die set to correctly bump the shoulder. I have used the 2 step method with the bump die and the Lee collet and it doesn't gain anything. The biggest gains are from top quality brass (Lapua, Peterson, Alpha, ADG) and bullets (Berger or custom). I do not hotrod things at high pressure. I have gotten over 20 reloads from Winchester and Peterson brass in 243AI with 105s at 3150 or 115s at 3050.

Like someone above stated, size .001" at a time until a stripped bolt closes with no resistance. Measurethat case and size to that dimension. Also, as stated above, the Redding comp shell holders are a good way to overcome press flex if it is an issue.

 

[EastHumboldt]

I’ve wondered about the bayonet lock system for the reasons described by Ragncajn.

If you guys looked at my first pic, you can see that some of the shoulders were bumped by about 10 thousandths. I forgot to ask if that is safe to shoot?

 

[HandgunHTR]

A question and a comment.

Question. How many times has the brass been fired in your gun? If it is less than 2, then the inconsistency could be that the brass has not fully expanded to your chamber. PPU is tough brass. The pieces that show more than 0.005” of bump may not be being bumped at all.

Comment. Stop doing the “rotate a half turn and running it up again” step. For reloading consistency is the key. Unless you are turning every piece of brass exactly the same and putting exactly the same force on your press handle, you are potentially inducing variables. Just leave the press up for 3-5 seconds on the first stroke to give it some dwell. That is enough.

Oh, and unless you are using a machine to anneal, that could be part of the issue as well.

 

[SDHNTR]

You are making the process harder than necessary. Just FL size one time, bumping shoulders back .002. Stop with all the other steps complicating things.

FWIW, an annealing color change down the case body 1/2” is way too much. And is an inconsistent way of doing it. I used to have a Burstfire. Used to.

 

[HuntHarder]

Redding competition shell holders make bumping shoulders back easy.

 

[EastHumboldt]

A question and a comment.

Question. How many times has the brass been fired in your gun? If it is less than 2, then the inconsistency could be that the brass has not fully expanded to your chamber. PPU is tough brass. The pieces that show more than 0.005” of bump may not be being bumped at all.

Comment. Stop doing the “rotate a half turn and running it up again” step. For reloading consistency is the key. Unless you are turning every piece of brass exactly the same and putting exactly the same force on your press handle, you are potentially inducing variables. Just leave the press up for 3-5 seconds on the first stroke to give it some dwell. That is enough.

Oh, and unless you are using a machine to anneal, that could be part of the issue as well.

1x fired in my Tikka 7-08. When I try to cycle the 1x fired brass through the tikka to check the fit, I get hard bolt close on most of it, and the comparator shows it being within a thou of new brass. (PPU or Hornady factory). I’m guessing that some of the hard bolt close issues are not the shoulder but the lower body. It just occurred to me I can try to measure this instead off guessing. Derp.

I have yet to try another batch, but as stated in post #6, I’m going to stop the “double sizing” thing, work on my lube process, and try dwelling at the top of the stroke for 3 seconds.

I am using a burst fire and my process is described in post #6. To answer SDHNTR, I’m getting the first hint of red glow only on the neck. And that’s just really the top of the neck. The lower area of the neck doesn’t quite make it to red. The shoulder and case area just below it are getting heated but since there’s more brass there, they never reach the point of glowing.

SDHNTR. What’s your annealing process now?

 

[RagnCajn]

I’ve wondered about the bayonet lock system for the reasons described by Ragncajn.

If you guys looked at my first pic, you can see that some of the shoulders were bumped by about 10 thousandths. I forgot to ask if that is safe to shoot?

10 thou isn't unsafe. It might shorten the life of those pieces of brass though. Firing pin will push the shoulder to the front of the chamber where the shoulders/neck will be the first thing to expand and grip the chamber. Then the pressure will lengthen the case to chamber dimensions by stretching the webb.

Only way to fix it at this point is with a false shoulder which I dont think is worth the trouble unless it was a piece of really expensive or hard to find caliber for brass.

Might help brass life if you loaded them with a reduced load and used them as foulers so it doesn't stretch as much.

 

[SDHNTR]

1x fired in my Tikka 7-08. When I try to cycle the 1x fired brass through the tikka to check the fit, I get hard bolt close on most of it, and the comparator shows it being within a thou of new brass. (PPU or Hornady factory). I’m guessing that some of the hard bolt close issues are not the shoulder but the lower body. It just occurred to me I can try to measure this instead off guessing. Derp.

I have yet to try another batch, but as stated in post #6, I’m going to stop the “double sizing” thing, work on my lube process, and try dwelling at the top of the stroke for 3 seconds.

I am using a burst fire and my process is described in post #6. To answer SDHNTR, I’m getting the first hint of red glow only on the neck. And that’s just really the top of the neck. The lower area of the neck doesn’t quite make it to red. The shoulder and case area just below it are getting heated but since there’s more brass there, they never reach the point of glowing.

SDHNTR. What’s your annealing process now?

Amp

 

[Castle Rock]

Might help brass life if you loaded them with a reduced load and used them as foulers so it doesn't stretch as much.

Reduced loads with clean brass and chamber tend to reduce in length.
Slightly reduced loads that are oiled form nicely but it isn’t something that I would recommend for a beginner

 

[TaperPin]

My annealing process: I’m using a burst fire, which just uses timing to rotate the case in the flame long enough to get the first hint of a dull red glow on the case neck. I’m doing it in near total darkness so I can see the glow. I’m letting the flame impinge on the neck, shoulder, and about the first 1/2” below the shoulder. I think it’s about as consistent as I’m gonna get without spending 2k on an Amp annealer.

I applaud the annealing machine makers for neat relatively inexpensive machines that do a great job with little babysitting needed. The marketing is spot on - and claims you really need the very best annealing technique are difficult to question, let alone disprove or prove. Imagine a product that if it worked or not, most people couldn’t tell, even smart people - engineers absolutely love these gizmos. Some of my best friends have been engineers so I don’t think it’s a negative that they go overboard on such things.

Each shooter should shoot changes and look for concrete results. I bring up my favorite big game rifle weighing 7-1/2 lbs with scope and ammo, that put most five-shot groups into 3/8 MOA and multiple targets stacked were still right at 1/2 MOA. Every piece of brass was annealed standing on a cookie sheet on the kitchen table and a hand held propane torch simply heated them to a dull red. By most standards it shot pretty good. Mixing annealed with once fired and not annealed, produced no difference in accuracy that I could tell at 200 yards. After that experience for the past two decades I’ve asked a group of benchrest shooters every other year or so if anyone has a comparison of a simple handheld torch with groups from an annealing gizmo, or even between gizmos. You will notice a lot of people saying it’s really important without actual comparisons on paper. Benchrest guys shoot groups every weekend, surely someone has a simple comparison showing a worthwhile improvement, even 1/16 MOA improvement but none have shared anything credible. I think it’s the secrete that’s kept quiet even among annealing producers - don’t ask and don’t tell. Guys buy a gizmo and don’t care to prove if it’s better or worse, but they like it and it feels good to use, and that’s ok. If anyone has before and after groups with an accurate hunting or match rifle I would love to finally see a measurable difference.

Copper does not anneal exactly like brass, but it is useful to run a torch over sections of 1/4” or 3/8” tubing and bending it by hand to see the difference between just barely turning it color, vs a dull red vs really red. I’ve listened to metallurgists claim a dull red is not technically hot enough to anneal brass, yet not have a good reason for the change in bending properties in copper tubing from even a slight turn of color a long way from actually turning any kind of red.

If there is an accuracy benefit to annealing for 1/2 MOA hunting rifles I haven’t seen it on my targets. If there is a benefit from an annealing gizmo over handheld torch on hunting rifles I haven’t seen an example on target from anyone with a gizmo. I will continue to anneal with a torch, but would buy a gizmo if evidence came along. I do not like it when guys are sold false hope, like hoping a car wax will improve gas mileage, or hoping an annealing gizmo will make a MOA rifle into even a 15/16 MOA shooter.

I don’t see any negative to a change in color 1/2” down the shoulder since it’s still a significant distance from the case web where the case does most of the stretching. Before it’s polished off, many factory annealing processes discolor nearly that far down the side.

 

[RagnCajn]

Reduced loads with clean brass and chamber tend to reduce in length.
Slightly reduced loads that are oiled form nicely but it isn’t something that I would recommend for a beginner

Thats interesting. I've never heard that before. Admittedly, I dont have much experience with reduced loads. All I've observed is that as I increase powder charge, I see a slight increase in growth so I wouldn't have guess that it would reverse at some point if you keep going down.

Dont want to derail the OP too much but help me understand why that happens.

 

[JGRaider]

I've been using exact setup OP describes, Lee collet die, bump shoulders occasionally with Redding body die for my 6.5CM, 6.5 PRC, and 7mm08. Never any issues with feeding, or accuracy, and get 10+ firings from my Nosler brass. I anneal every 3rd.