Kuiu vs Kifaru - My decision

jdhaines

FNG
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
6
Hey all, first timer on a review.

Background:

31 years old
245lbs
6' 0"
21.5" torso
32" inseam

I recently did a 5k which consisted of carrying a bunch of weight, doing land nav, shooting (precision, carbine, pistol), etc. We trained a bunch leading up to the event. I had an ILBE and used it throughout. As I was doing more distance and more weight I was learning more about packs on websites like this one. I looked at different manufacturers, did a ton of research and watched a lot of videos. I learned about things like how load lifters work, pack sizes, proper fitment, etc.

Coming from using the ILBE I had a few complaints any new pack would HAVE to solve.
1) It absolutely had to provide some shoulder lift. The ilbe has load lifter attachments which are even with the tops of my shoulders so I'm holding some shoulder weight no matter what.
2) The new pack has to have a forward pull waist belt. I'm constantly trying to unclip, tighten slightly, then re-clip by back and forth trying to clear the material on my shirt/pants/coat/etc. I can't get nearly enough tension through the waist belt with the outward pull belt.
3) It needed more capacity than the ilbe.

The third point is explained by saying I'm getting more into camping / hiking and my wife and 2 year old daughter want to as well. I end up being the sherpa. Although the ILBE can carry a week's worth of gear for me, when I add a 3 person tent, 3 sleeping bags, 3 people's sleeping pads, etc then I need a TON more room even for a simple overnighter.

------------------
Test

I decided to go all out and buy a nice set-up from KUIU and from Kifaru because those were the two companies who had packs that met my needs. They both have evaluation periods and returns for clean / like-new gear. I made two orders.

Kuiu: One icon pro frame (tall) and one of each of 7200, 3200, 1850 bags icon pro bags. (~$540 with sale)
Kifaru: Tactical frame with additional carbon arrows, guide lid, EMR II and some compression straps (~$950)

The kuiu arrived in a week or two, the kifaru took maybe 3-4 weeks.
-------

Kuiu

Good:
Overall this was nice gear. I know some people give them a lot of crap, but I was impressed. The method of attachment from the frame to the bag seemed solid. The hardware seemed to be high quality. The material was lighter than I thought it would be and thinner...although it turns out that's just 500D and I wasn't used to it. The compression straps worked well. It was all packaged nice. The waist belt adjustment works awesome...a lot better than the kifaru in fact. It cinches up tight enough to hurt without much trouble. I got plenty of load lift and what an amazing thing that is with a bunch of weight in the bag. I went up to about 90lbs with clean water bottles around the house. I wanted to make sure to honor their return policy and keep things clean, but wanted to see how it worked. The frame support and the waist belt worked very well at holding the load. I'm a materials engineer...and their materials feel really nice. Their foams, fabrics, padding, etc just feel luxurious compared to the colder-harder-more durable kifaru stuff.

Bad:
Although the hardware felt very solid, it is also very small. The straps, including the shoulder strap adjustments are a much smaller size (in width and thickness) than I'm used to. I never broke any, but I would be worried. The hardware matches the small webbing size and I felt constantly like I had to be careful pulling on anything. The shoulder strap hardware is just as small, although it is cast from metal. All of the straps have plastic keepers which is nice to keep it out of your way, but it is also a PIA because they keep the ends tight and you can't find them for adjustments...especially the shoulder strap adjustment webbing.

The 7200 bag and the 1850 bags were great. The 7200 compresses down and can be used as a daypack, but the 1850 was sweet. If I was keeping the kuiu I'd keep those two bags. The 3200 seemed out of place. It's far too small to pack a lot in, but was as big as the 7200 when compressed so it didn't feel like a small daypack either. I don't see much benefit in that size personally.

Also, there was no way to cinch the load tightly enough to the frame that it didn't move. When I loaded up the bag with all that water, if I twisted my body to the left, the bag would slip independently of the frame further. This could lead to balance problems, etc. It didn't feel like it could tear loose, but it was definitely not connected like a single unit.

-----------------------
Kifaru

Good:
Pretty much everything. You guys know kifaru's stuff. Specifically, the frame just feels great when cinched down.
Also the EMR II is gigantic. I was able to put every piece of camping gear I own (enough for the whole family for a few days easy) in the bag, cinch it down, and didn't even need to use the guide lid. It was nice and wide...but it fit. Unlike the kuiu the EMR even fully loaded was tight to the frame. If I twisted quickly, the bag and frame moved together and I went for a ride. I feel like this is desirable.

Bad:
The waist belt doesn't work nearly as well as the kuiu. When I pull hard on one side towards the center it will adjust at the buckle a little bit and just flex in the waistbelt from the frame the rest. So when I let go it's only tightened a very small amount. I found a workaround by pulling in with the end of the strap and helping the webbing through the buckle with my other hand. This fully tightens the belt, but it isn't as clean as the kuiu design. The plastic keeper on the outside also will slide and pull out of position requiring me to stop and fix that before I can keep tightening. The ends of the waist belt are rolled over and tack stitched, but they bury themselves in the adjuster bars and make it really hard to dig them out to get moving. I have to be careful to pull them free slightly before clipping the waist belt or it's a 2 minute ordeal to get them free enough to start tightening. Annoying, but not a deal breaker.

Also the price. It sucks that I get a lid, frame, and bag for over $900 while I can get a frame and 3 full bags for only ~$550 at kuiu although that included the big sale they had. I'm not complaining as I know there are reasons for the differences, but it still hurts the ol' wallet.

----------------------------

Summary

I think I'm keeping the kifaru. I wanted to get the best set-up and have something that I can keep forever. I think the kifaru is it. That said, if I had ordered the kuiu only...I would have been perfectly happy with it. If you don't know any better I think you'll be completely pleased with their packs. The frames are rigid and solid, the bags are nice, and they are certainly lightweight. But since I did the bonehead move of buying both and comparing, it is now pretty obvious that the kifaru is better. I'm not completely convinced it's $400 better...but it's better. The money has already been spent and I'm not going to fight about it at this point. I'll return the kuiu with no bitter feelings and a position to jump in when people are dog piling them without good reason. Down the road I'll probably pick up a cargo hauler for the kifaru to carry sandbag(s) for training. Maybe some more pockets or something. But for now I'm good with the guide lid, EMR II, and frame.

One more point...everyone says the tactical frame is heavy so I got the carbon arrows...what in the bush? It doesn't weigh anything. I think people are too big on the grams and ounces. Go carry the ILBE which is like 10lbs empty. The emr II and frame together out of the box weighs about as much as a shoe. I'll probably never take the time to put the carbon arrows in. Luckily they were cheap so I don't feel too bad about it.

I'll try to monitor this thread, add additional thoughts, answer questions, etc...at least for awhile. This is sort of stream-of-consciousness, but I hope it's been helpful to some of you.
 

gelton

WKR
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
2,511
Location
Central Texas
You may want to call Kifaru about the belt issue as they are known for the best belt in the biz. I know a couple of years back they had a sewing issue where the plastic loop for the belt wasn't sewn on tight enough so it would flex a bit causing the problem you are describing. I sent my belt back and had some additional sewing done and it solved the problem.
 

jspradley

WKR
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
1,725
Location
League City, TX
Good write up! I have a Kuiu and a Kifaru pack as well. IMO the Kuiu is a good pack for the price but the Kifaru is a GREAT pack

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

Kotaman

WKR
Joined
Oct 12, 2012
Messages
3,105
Location
North Dakota
Good review. I've owned each of those as well and agree with your assessment except for the belt thing. I agree, you need to call Kifaru as you shouldn't be having that issue.
 

N2TRKYS

WKR
Joined
Apr 17, 2016
Messages
3,954
Location
Alabama
Definitely, get the cargo panel. I bought one when I bought my AMR/hunter frame setup. 2 bags of sand in the cargo panel feels better than in the bag, to me.
 
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
2,814
Location
Littleton, CO
Aron has commented about those belt issues before and has said that in some cases this is caused by the having a touch too small of a belt. They will make a 'marge' or 'smedium' if you'r between sizes. I had the tightening issues at first, but as the webbing has worn in I don't have to lift the buckle to get it to tighten anymore.

As someone who has also tried both I agree with most of your assessment, however for me the Kuiu also doesn't fit every body type and I found that it couldn't be correctly adjusted to fit my very long torso.

Also, if you like the Kuiu style of bag, the Exo is closer and the bags can be put on a Kifaru frame with relative ease.

Lastly, I am curious; as someone who understands materials sciences and material engineering, wouldn't you agree that the composite frame with the amount of flex allowed in the design especially through the narrow parts (stays and just above the belt) is cause for concern with durability over time? Traditionally with CF composites foam or some other material is added to increase rigidity because when CF flexes cracks will form in the resin decreasing the strength eventually resulting in a failure. If you aren't putting enough of a load in your pack to flex the frame very often you would probably be fine, but if regularly loading up with 80+lbs I can see no other outcome than eventual failure.
 
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
3,758
Location
Edmond, OK
Great write up. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

You made a great point when referencing the side by side comparison. There are a lot of good packs out there but when you have them side by side with a Kifaru there's always a major difference. I've never regretted spending the extra money when I'm carrying the pack. I know exactly where my extra money went.

I've got 11 yrs on you but very similar measurements. Definitely call Aron (or the shop) about your belt. I started with a large and it was a tad too big. I could bottom it out when cinched tight for a heavy load. Thought I needed a medium belt and had similar problems you've described. Couldn't ever get the belt to cinch tight the way it's supposed to. Always hand feeding the strap was a major inconvenience. It would work but never the way I thought it should. Called the shop and they made me a "Marge" belt. (In between the medium and large). The fit and function was night and day different between the large and the medium. Well worth the phone call and few day wait for the new Marge belt to arrive.


molon labe
 

LBFowler

WKR
Joined
Jul 6, 2015
Messages
367
His Kifaru belt experience matches my own. It just isn't a good reverse pull design, you are better off using it as a traditional straight pull.
 
OP
J

jdhaines

FNG
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
6
Lastly, I am curious; as someone who understands materials sciences and material engineering, wouldn't you agree that the composite frame with the amount of flex allowed in the design especially through the narrow parts (stays and just above the belt) is cause for concern with durability over time? Traditionally with CF composites foam or some other material is added to increase rigidity because when CF flexes cracks will form in the resin decreasing the strength eventually resulting in a failure. If you aren't putting enough of a load in your pack to flex the frame very often you would probably be fine, but if regularly loading up with 80+lbs I can see no other outcome than eventual failure.

Someone better call Boeing and tell them the 787 carbon wings aren't going to work if they flex with turbulence! Joking aside, I understand your point but I'm not super worried about it. Kuiu is working with an actual carbon fiber design house. If they did it themselves from kits I'd be worried. CF has been around long enough that a good shop can design parts to stay in the elastic regime meaning it's flexing but not undergoing any permanent changes. It's possible they didn't design it correctly, but with the testing videos and reviews it looks to be fine. Part of the CF process is trial and error which is why they've gone through so many design changes. That's part of the growing pains of that technology.

You may want to call Kifaru about the belt issue as they are known for the best belt in the biz. I know a couple of years back they had a sewing issue where the plastic loop for the belt wasn't sewn on tight enough so it would flex a bit causing the problem you are describing. I sent my belt back and had some additional sewing done and it solved the problem.

This sounds like the issue. Although the guys below talking about size may be right too. I'm near the end of adjustment. I'm down 50lbs this year and have another 25 to go. When I get there I'll probably bottom it out. In the picture the plastic bar twists like this every time I try to get any tighter. It's about max tightness in the picture, but I'd like it just a little more snug. The kuiu system is absolutely effortless to get a crushing tension. I'm not sure if it's the hardware or angles, but it works so well. I'll give kifaru a call and see what they recommend.

Edit: The picture didn't work before
belt.jpg
 
Last edited:

Kotaman

WKR
Joined
Oct 12, 2012
Messages
3,105
Location
North Dakota
Aron has commented about those belt issues before and has said that in some cases this is caused by the having a touch too small of a belt. They will make a 'marge' or 'smedium' if you'r between sizes. I had the tightening issues at first, but as the webbing has worn in I don't have to lift the buckle to get it to tighten anymore.

As someone who has also tried both I agree with most of your assessment, however for me the Kuiu also doesn't fit every body type and I found that it couldn't be correctly adjusted to fit my very long torso.

Also, if you like the Kuiu style of bag, the Exo is closer and the bags can be put on a Kifaru frame with relative ease.

Lastly, I am curious; as someone who understands materials sciences and material engineering, wouldn't you agree that the composite frame with the amount of flex allowed in the design especially through the narrow parts (stays and just above the belt) is cause for concern with durability over time? Traditionally with CF composites foam or some other material is added to increase rigidity because when CF flexes cracks will form in the resin decreasing the strength eventually resulting in a failure. If you aren't putting enough of a load in your pack to flex the frame very often you would probably be fine, but if regularly loading up with 80+lbs I can see no other outcome than eventual failure.

Yes, this is correct. A larger belt fixes the problem in many instances. I always go bigger on the belt size. (I fall in between Large and Medium) With the larger belt I never have the issue but did have issues with the smaller belt.
 
OP
J

jdhaines

FNG
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
6
I don't disagree, but I think if I went any larger on the belt, it would bottom out now, or certainly would within a couple more pounds.
 
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
2,814
Location
Littleton, CO
I don't disagree, but I think if I went any larger on the belt, it would bottom out now, or certainly would within a couple more pounds.

I would give Frank a call and see if they will tack the loop tighter for you, I haven't had an issue with nor seen it twisting like that. Kifaru uses a thicker webbing material that as it gets worn in will hopefully make it easier to tighten and you won't have to do alternating sides.
 

MT_Wyatt

WKR
Joined
Aug 20, 2014
Messages
1,920
Location
Montana
Aron has commented about those belt issues before and has said that in some cases this is caused by the having a touch too small of a belt. They will make a 'marge' or 'smedium' if you'r between sizes. I had the tightening issues at first, but as the webbing has worn in I don't have to lift the buckle to get it to tighten anymore.

As someone who has also tried both I agree with most of your assessment, however for me the Kuiu also doesn't fit every body type and I found that it couldn't be correctly adjusted to fit my very long torso.

Also, if you like the Kuiu style of bag, the Exo is closer and the bags can be put on a Kifaru frame with relative ease.

Lastly, I am curious; as someone who understands materials sciences and material engineering, wouldn't you agree that the composite frame with the amount of flex allowed in the design especially through the narrow parts (stays and just above the belt) is cause for concern with durability over time? Traditionally with CF composites foam or some other material is added to increase rigidity because when CF flexes cracks will form in the resin decreasing the strength eventually resulting in a failure. If you aren't putting enough of a load in your pack to flex the frame very often you would probably be fine, but if regularly loading up with 80+lbs I can see no other outcome than eventual failure.

I think I heard Jason say use use foam as a spacer material in that Podcast with Joe Rogan. I'm not sure I've ever heard that before, but maybe they changed their manufacturing process with the new carbon fiber weave? All we need is someone with a few hundred extra dollars and a table saw :)
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
Messages
897
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Lakewood, CO
Hey JD,

Give me a call at Kifaru 303.278.9155 so I can get your belt issue taken care of. Looks to me like you will need one of the in-between belt sizes and we also need to repair the belt so that the common loops doesn't get twisted when tightening.

If anyone else is having belt issues, feel free to give me a call!

-Frank
 

Justin Crossley

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
7,268
Location
Buckley, WA
Hey JD,

Give me a call at Kifaru 303.278.9155 so I can get your belt issue taken care of. Looks to me like you will need one of the in-between belt sizes and we also need to repair the belt so that the common loops doesn't get twisted when tightening.

If anyone else is having belt issues, feel free to give me a call!

-Frank

That's why I always recommend Kifaru packs to my friends.
 

Boman

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
103
Great write up. Thanks for taking the time to post that up. I am in the same position of trying to decide so this helps.
 
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