grouping?

[b0nes]

I was at the range today and was shooting some new factory ammo I got a deal on through midway. Caliber is 270 wsm in a win 70 featherweight, dont let the name fool you its 9+ pounds scoped. I was shooting winchester accubond ct ammo, I had a group(3) just shy of an inch and another just shy of 3/4. Every other round out of 20 was a flat out flier, could this all be operator error or does my rifle just despise this ammo? I didnt feel any different on any of the fliers on my part than i did on the tight groups. I was shooting off a v rest with bags in the back and after my target looking like a 00 buck round hit it at 15 yards I just gave up, and ran out of ammo until my 2 other boxes get here monday. First group was 2 3/4 left, 2 3/4 up which is good for elevation so i adjusted for windage. Second group was 1/4 inch right and 2 3/4 high. all the other shots were all over the map, I mean like center(elev) and 2 inches right, or 2 inches left and 2 inches down from bullseye on target. Anyone else experience this? I posted this on another forum just fyi so if someone sees it.

 

[elkguide]

Try a different breed of ammo and see if you can group with it.

 

[GKPrice]

strange things can happen sometimes but this one "sounds" as if something came loose - you are saying that you had a 3 shot 1" group immediately followed by a 3 shot 3/4" group and then fliers nothing but fliers ? there could be a long list of stuff to look for so begin with the obvious:
scope mounts ... scope ... some kind of granule, kernel or metal filing in a bolt lug race ? if nothing turns up with those it'll get more interesting then ..... first grab it by the scope and start shaking it while looking and listening for rattles

some years back I had a guy from Pennsylvania send me a 300 Weatherby with Zeiss 3x9 with a note, "this rifle just suddenly lost all accuracy, I think it needs a new barrel" - I picked it up from the hard case by the scope and shook it once, the scope was so loose in the rings not only did it rattle, the scope moved ! I called the guy the next day to "feel him out", make sure it wasn't a set up, nope it was not and he insisted it needed a new barrel (which it did not) so check the gun out well, there are a lot of things that could be wrong

 

[b0nes]

I apologize, I was kind of vague on wait times and order of groups. First 2 shots were touching, 3 rd was a flier. When shooting a group I try to give 1 minute to 30 seconds wait just to be consistent. The group's came randomly. 2 different 3 shot groups that just happened randomly throughout the 20 rounds I guess. I will check the torque on scope mounts and action. The good groups were just enough to keep me going then came the kick in the nuts. It was like a box of fliers with 6 good ones or something. Going to check torque now, report back in a bit.

 

[elkguide]

I interpreted your post to be that they were random shot groups. If it was as GK answered, he is definitely correct. If after checking everything and you find everything to be in order and tight, besides trying different ammo, try checking the floating of the barrel. I had a Remington 700 Mountain rifle brought to me because it couldn't be kept on paper. Even tried to get me to buy it for pennies on the dollar. (if it hadn't been in 30.06 I probably would have bought it) After shooting it myself and getting a 4" group, followed by a second 4" group, with the bullets walking up, I relieved the barrel pressure by rasping the stock and shot a 3/4" group. It suddenly wasn't for sale anymore.

 

[b0nes]

Checked action screws, scope mount screws, and scope clamp screws(?). All are per spec by manufacture. Barrel is free floated maybe almost a 1/16th all the way around. Fit and finish was fairly impressive all the way around to me when I bought the rifle. I think I forgot to say I just recently switched to this factory ammo from nosler trophy grade (it's half the price). I figured same bullet what's the worst that could happen. The trophy grade would consistently print 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 inch groups, never much better. I figured I should be in the same ball park with the cheaper ammo given its the same bullet and same OAL. But it put out a couple great groups (for me) and just scattered the rest not in that particular order. I'm at a loss. I would love to buy a box of every ammo made in 270 wsm but if I'm being honest I'm too broke to do that. Any suggestions on an accurate ammo in your rifle would be great. Also, I started the day with a Wipe out clean rifle, and I mean absolutely clean. First 2 shots touched and then scattered after that. First four shots were 2in high and 2in left...2in high, 1 3/4 left...0(elevation),1in right....1in low, 1in left. I'm no sniper by any means but I can shoot my 7# 7-08 at 1 inch all day and sometimes better. I'm just lost other than it just doesn't like the ammo.

 

[16Bore]

Could be a lot of little things....

Rifle bedded?
Mag box bottomed out?
Front scope base screw deadheaded on the barrel shank?
Bullet runout?
Front action screw hitting the bolt lug?
Thin profile barrel might need tip pressure?
Where's your rest position? Further back the better in light barrels.

Virgin brass is always going to be a little sloppy in the chamber, some more sloppy than others. Meaning undersized. You do make a few concessions with factory ammo, but in this day and age, MOA out of an off the shelf rifle and off the shelf ammo is no feat.

 

[16Bore]

Not "light rifles" but light contours.

 

[b0nes]

16bore, honestly I am not savvy enough to tackle most of the issues you stated. When I buy a $850 rifle I naively expect the manufacturer to tackle those problems. My v on the bench is just in front of the magwell as I know wood stocks tend to flex. The barrels contour is much heavier than you would think a rifle called a featherweight to be. I do have around 100 win brass and 80 nobler brass that I intend to reload, but I'm not totally set up yet and hunting season is fast approaching. I appreciate everyone's advice and I would love it if it kept on coming. Any small detail could make the difference. All I hear in my brain is "tick tock here comes hunting season". Thanks again.

 

[b0nes]

Also there is some bedding around the action screws but the action itself is not bedded.

 

[elkguide]

Checked action screws, scope mount screws, and scope clamp screws(?). All are per spec by manufacture. Barrel is free floated maybe almost a 1/16th all the way around. Fit and finish was fairly impressive all the way around to me when I bought the rifle. I think I forgot to say I just recently switched to this factory ammo from nosler trophy grade (it's half the price). I figured same bullet what's the worst that could happen. The trophy grade would consistently print 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 inch groups, never much better. I figured I should be in the same ball park with the cheaper ammo given its the same bullet and same OAL. But it put out a couple great groups (for me) and just scattered the rest not in that particular order. I'm at a loss. I would love to buy a box of every ammo made in 270 wsm but if I'm being honest I'm too broke to do that. Any suggestions on an accurate ammo in your rifle would be great. Also, I started the day with a Wipe out clean rifle, and I mean absolutely clean. First 2 shots touched and then scattered after that. First four shots were 2in high and 2in left...2in high, 1 3/4 left...0(elevation),1in right....1in low, 1in left. I'm no sniper by any means but I can shoot my 7# 7-08 at 1 inch all day and sometimes better. I'm just lost other than it just doesn't like the ammo.

Answer is probably right there if you have done everything else. Shoot some of the previously accurate ammo.

If that changes things then remember.... it only takes one shot for most big game animals.

 

[16Bore]

Don't get hung up on the price/value thing. I just dropped $1k on a Kimber and it'll need all those things attended to and more. It's basically about repeatable harmonics and any little thing can change it. Better built ammo should shoot better than $20/box stuff, but that's not always the case either.

And don't take your own ability out of the picture, you'll have bad days too. It happens. 270 WSM can be a little snappy.

Wood stocks don't do favors, but I can understand the appeal. Bedding is the first thing I would check off the list and I've never seen a bedded rifle shoot worse than the same unbedded. I know wood can be finicky with torgue, as can scope rings/mounts.

Hard part is to not let the fact that its not shooting how you want ruin your like/desire/confidence in the rifle. I just had this conversation with my brother about how so much effort ends up in the rifle. It's 1 of 99 things that can go wrong, yet the other 99 seem to fall by the wayside. His answer was: It's the last thing we touch before all the work starts and regardless of what else fails, it's the most noticeable and the first to be replaced.

Pretty interesting idea. If a fella couldn't fatham using a 270 for elk hunting, he isn't going to talk himself into it. If he decides that a 300WM is "better" then that better be the rifle in his hands come game time. My guess is that one time or another, a (blank) has been successfully and efficiently shot with a (blank).
Be
Anyway, enough jib jab. Here's my example from today: Late 60's M70, 270. Rifle has is on its 7th stock, lord knows how many scopes and bases, and loads out the ying yang. Rear scope base has a tin can shim and it's the most jimmyphucked rifle I've had. But the damn thing has always shot well. Put it in a new HS Precision (hate it, by the way) stock. Rifle is bedded. Shot 3 Corlokts that were ancient (stuff that looked so bad it should have been thrown in the dud bucket) that went under 1". I thought sweet! Then loaded 3 130 NPT handloads that previously shot 1/2 MOA and were stellar. Same rifle, same lot of ammo couldnt hold better than 1-1/2".

Sooooo.....moral of the long story getting longer? Something got lost in the new stock and even though it's better than the BC that was on there, it's just a matter of figuring out what got goofy.


Anyway, keep working it. It'll come around.....

 

[b0nes]

You guys are awsome and guys like you are the reason rokslide is the best forum on the www. Im going to try to buy a couple boxes of diff ammo, probably a couple expensive and a couple cheap. I have a couple boxes of the same ammo on the way and will try them too, maybe the diff heat number will change things? Doubt it, but who knows. Im thinking a box of barnes, federals, corelokts, and maybe some fusions. 16bore, what youre saying in your last post really resonates because my dad loaded a couple hundred rounds last year and he still had 50+ left as of this morning. Last year they were 1-1 1/2 inchers and today they were a scattergun and we were both puzzled and he finished with maybe 20 left before we called it quits. Sorry for the run on sentence. For the time being im going to clean my rifle and go at it again with a new day and fresh mind in a week or so. Thanks again for all the advice and you guys rock.

 

[hodgeman]

I'd be sorely tempted to try a box of Federal "Blue Box" and see what happens. For some reason, that stuff alway seems to shoot pretty good in a variety of rifles.

No one has mentioned it yet... but a couple tight groups or shots followed by flyers sounds a whole lot like anticipating recoil and it can happen to anyone.

Before I spent a pile of cash cranking on a gun or trying a round robin of ammunition in it- I'd h ave a buddy shoot it see what he can do with it.

 

[b0nes]

Although not impossible, developing a flinch seems unlikely, I have a 7mm08 that is 7 pounds loaded and beats the crap out of me and last year actually broke my shooting glasses at the nose, but I still manage to shoot consistent groups with. My short mag undoubtedly recoil a lot more but I have a scope that has longer eye relief and has never touched my face. Psychologically I don't fear it at all but I will have the guy next to me shoot it next time I'm at the range. I've shot some stomper calibers that I didn't show any flinch and but it's not impossible. I am having trouble with the factory trigger, it's an MOA trigger that I adjusted the weight of pull but haven't touched the actual travel setting. Trigger anticipation? Maybe but I felt equal on the fliers as I did the good groups. 1 or 2 inch flier I would claim, 4 to 5 inches seems like something else. When I shot in Nevada with my 7-08 I hit on steel(9x9) at 200, 300, 400,500, and 600 as fast as I could jack the bolt and fire(for me). I'm no robot but I feel like it's a perfect shot and it was way the f out there today. Shot a 12 by 12 plate at 200 and one was far left and center and one was high right corner on back to back shots with same point of aim.

 

[GKPrice]

forgot to ask, what brand of scope, power range, etc ... is on the rifle ?

 

[16Bore]

shoot a little 22LR or 223, it'll show you a lot. If anything make feel better about your trigger finger. Might be fighting a little parallax too.

 

[b0nes]

GK it is a vortex viper hs lr I believe 4-16x44, Bdc reticle, mounted in dnz aluminum one piece scope rings. Usually we bring a 17 hmr with us for our downtime and cooling period as it is almost cheaper than shooting 22 lr anymore. With the 17 even at 100 yards we are usually boring a hole through the bullseye on the target with it. We did not bring it on this occasion though. Even at 9+ pounds my 270 wsm still has some fairly heavy recoil although when Im pulling shots I immediately know it. I felt confident in the vast majority of shots yesterday and Im not the type of person that claims to be perfect or the best ever. It was a strange day at the range. Get paid thursday, going to buy some more ammo (different) and try again soon. A couple weeks ago I adjusted the trigger (moa) and I only adjusted pull weight, it felt dialed when I was dry firing it but when i got to the range it felt pretty much just as heavy as before and I only adjusted the pull weight and not the take up. A mistake on my part because it takes too long to squeeze the trigger before the rifle goes off, dont get me wrong the trigger is crisp but on my model 7 with a custom trigger when you are ready you put pressure on the trigger and it fires. Other than ammo the trigger on my winny is the only other anomaly I can think of. Thanks again guys for your time and input.

 

[b0nes]

Sorry some of that trigger info is a repeat that i forgot i had already posted. And sorry for the grammar issues as i usually use a tablet that takes care of that stuff and it has ruined me for typing on an actual computer.

 

[16Bore]

You'd need two fingers to pull my triggers. Longer story and only makes sense to me, but the harder I hold the rifle, the heavier I want the trigger.


Don't even ask and don't bother trying to explain the benefits of a 1# trigger.


Anyway, back to your rifle. I might be tempted to pull it apart and take a look for rubbing, binding, oddities, etc.