Going away from ballistic rangefinders!

[Brandon.miller.4]

As I've become more familiar with my sig 2400abs rangefinder I believe I have come to the conclusion that I may want to go away from rangefinders with ballistics built in.

I like to keep things as simple as possible and call me crazy, but I think I'd prefer a set of leica geovid binos and a dope chart pasted on the side of my rifle.

I've also been shooting more and find myself knowing my adjustments (or close enough) before I even get my readout. Combine that with the fact thay i call wind using mil brackets, I just cant see the need for it anymore. From the lowest elevation I hunt to the highest I hunt there is only .1 mil difference in elevation at my max hunting range for the different pressures.

I can't help but think I'd be satisfied with rangefinding binos with no ballistics instead of two separate units and having ballistics.

Have I lost it? Am I missing something that is to be desired with the ballistic units? The time it takes for me to reference the dope chart is not a concern for me btw.

Who else has switched back to a rf/rf bino and dope chart? Let me know your thoughts and experiences!

 

[jkdrgn]

I had no idea those ballistic units didn't factor in angle. Why would they ever make them that way?

 

[Roosterstraw]

I had no idea those ballistic units didn't factor in angle. Why would they ever make them that way?

they do factor in the angle with the ballistic solver they just don’t show the amr on the read out. That really doesn’t matter unless you’re ranging for a buddy imo.

 

[jkdrgn]

Ah, I see, thanks!

 

[Brandon.miller.4]

Are you sure about this?

they do factor in the angle with the ballistic solver they just don’t show the amr on the read out. That really doesn’t matter unless you’re ranging for a buddy imo.

I compared directly to my friend who was using a angle modified range and I referenced my dope chart and his happened to be spot on whereas with mine it was up to a .5 mil difference in my readout vs actual. Which do you have that compensates angle at the same time?

 

[6.5x284]

It absolutely factors in angle with the ballistic solver. You have an input error somewhere. The SIG is goofy with the zero input if you have a high or offset zero FYI. The info above is also correct, it will show the range, and the degree, and the dope but not the angle corrected range on the display. But it's solved for in your dope. You have an input off somewhere. What range did you true velocity at, and what range did you true BC at?

 

[Brandon.miller.4]

I trued at 790. All very flat though. Don't have anywhere I can access long shots at steep angles. I guess I didn't realize it was supposed to account for it in the solution. I'd like to get my hands on his and do some more comparisons. I've also had alot of issues syncing with my sig and that has turned me off as well.

 

[6.5x284]

I trued at 790. All very flat though. Don't have anywhere I can access long shots at steep angles. I guess I didn't realize it was supposed to account for it in the solution. I'd like to get my hands on his and do some more comparisons. I've also had alot of issues syncing with my sig and that has turned me off as well.

That should be plenty. I like to true velocity 500-600 or so and BC at 1000-1200. Trueing where it's flat shouldn't matter. Do you have a Kestrel? I'd completely reload your gun profile in the sig and kestrel and go from there. They should be extremely close. Mine are like .1 at 1200 yards difference. Once I input my sig data and sync, I don't sync it again unless something changes or I need to add a diffent gun, etc...

While obvious, make sure you have the correct gun in the correct profile. Easier on the 8K since you can name the profiels and not just have 1-4. And make sure you don't have an input in MIL vs MOA, etc...

It should be giving you very accurate info. I do find it's a fair amount off temp wise, but that's minimal difference. I just start pulling out my RF when I get to a glassing knob to get it adjusted.

Good luck trouble shooting!

 

[Brandon.miller.4]

Modified original post so I don't spread misinformation. I was incorrect. Still curious if anyone has seen a huge disadvantage to using a dope chart over a ballistic rangefinder?

 

[Brandon.miller.4]

That should be plenty. I like to true velocity 500-600 or so and BC at 1000-1200. Trueing where it's flat shouldn't matter. Do you have a Kestrel? I'd completely reload your gun profile in the sig and kestrel and go from there. They should be extremely close. Mine are like .1 at 1200 yards difference. Once I input my sig data and sync, I don't sync it again unless something changes or I need to add a diffent gun, etc...

While obvious, make sure you have the correct gun in the correct profile. Easier on the 8K since you can name the profiels and not just have 1-4. And make sure you don't have an input in MIL vs MOA, etc...

It should be giving you very accurate info. I do find it's a fair amount off temp wise, but that's minimal difference. I just start pulling out my RF when I get to a glassing knob to get it adjusted.

Good luck trouble shooting!

I think all the inputs are correct as I got everything to match up between my sig and AB app. I was inputting the angle into AB and comparing that way. It just seems like so much tinkering to me. Turns out I was probably overthinking it.

 

[Formidilosus]

Modified original post so I don't spread misinformation. I was incorrect. Still curious if anyone has seen a huge disadvantage to using a dope chart over a ballistic rangefinder?

No. Most people would be better off with a pair of Geovid R’s and use a quick ballistic app screen shot on their phone Lock Screen or a data chart; or better remember the quick calcs for drops.

Using the RF to give ballistics correction is also slower than getting a range and looking at a chart in your stock or Lock Screen on your phone, and especially slower than average gun/quick calc method.

Ballistic Range Finders also suffer from environmental errors with temperature due to body heat or warm vehicles, tents, etc and taking quite a while to reach ambient- about 12-15 minutes for Leica Geovid Pros for instance. I have used Swaro EL Range TA’s, Vortex Fury AB’s, Leica 3200 and Pros, Sigs, etc extensively, and the Zeiss enough that the error that can be in present in cold weather (late November hunts) from body heat to ambient will be enough to cause issues past 600 yards. Last year on a deer it was a .4 mil error due to a warm truck at 860 yards as soon as we arrived.

The wind correction is about totally worthless for most as wind in the mountains is not consistent all the way to the target and having multiple wind directions between shooter and target is not only not unusual, it’s common. A recent experience shows this perfectly- almost no wind where we were located, no wind on the far hill showing, but enough wind in the middle of the canyon to cause a .3’ish mil drift.



In short-

If you are using a mil scope, know the quick calc method of elevation, use wind brackets, and mostly shoot to around 600’ish yards, a non ballistics RF bino will not hinder you, and probably is better.

 

[Brandon.miller.4]

No. Most people would be better off with a pair of Geovid R’s and use a quick ballistic app screen shot on their phone Lock Screen or a data chart; or better remember the quick calcs for drops.

Using the RF to give ballistics correction is also slower than getting a range and looking at a chart in your stock or Lock Screen on your phone, and especially slower than average gun/quick calc method.

Ballistic Range Finders also suffer from environmental errors with temperature due to body heat or warm vehicles, tents, etc and taking quite a while to reach ambient- about 12-15 minutes for Leica Geovid Pros for instance. I have used Swaro EL Range TA’s, Vortex Fury AB’s, Leica 3200 and Pros, Sigs, etc extensively, and the Zeiss enough that the error that can be in present in cold weather (late November hunts) from body heat to ambient will be enough to cause issues past 600 yards. Last year on a deer it was a .4 mil error due to a warm truck at 860 yards as soon as we arrived.

The wind correction is about totally worthless for most as wind in the mountains is not consistent all the way to the target and having multiple wind directions between shooter and target is not only not unusual, it’s common. A recent experience shows this perfectly- almost no wind where we were located, no wind on the far hill showing, but enough wind in the middle of the canyon to cause a .3’ish mil drift.



In short-

If you are using a mil scope, know the quick calc method of elevation, use wind brackets, and mostly shoot to around 600’ish yards, a non ballistics RF bino will not hinder you, and probably is better.

I appreciate the response from someone who has used em all extensively. I couldn't help but think I was getting too "techy" when there's a simpler and equally effective way. The thought of having the dope chart on the side of each gun and not having to sync or switch profiles, or be conscious of unit temp, or wait for the annoying wind correction to go off the screen.

I'm thinking the best option for glass quality Is going to be leica geovid 2700 hd-r. Is my thinking correct on this? If i recall correctly this unit takes barometric pressure into account on the equivalent horizontal range? Other units that would be good for just ranging?

 

[MuleyFever]

I am almost positive my Leica HD-B 2200 do not calculate angle into the ballistic solver.

 

[Formidilosus]

I appreciate the response from someone who has used em all extensively. I couldn't help but think I was getting too "techy" when there's a simpler and equally effective way. The thought of having the dope chart on the side of each gun and not having to sync or switch profiles, or be conscious of unit temp, or wait for the annoying wind correction to go off the screen.

Another thing to do is put the correction at your max range per 2k foot DA change. For instance, chart is for 5,000ft DA, in the corner write .2 mil +/- per 2k DA at 800 yards, etc. I know that sub 500 yards there’s no change, at 600 it’s .1 mil, at 800y .2 mil.

I'm thinking the best option for glass quality Is going to be leica geovid 2700 hd-r. Is my thinking correct on this?

Mmmm. I, and several others I know actually prefer the original Geovid and new Geovid R’s to the 2700 and even 3200’s. Objectify when sitting side by side trying to see the difference the higher end Geovids are better, but when actually using them, several of us prefer the Geovid R’s. Only the new Pro’s are “better” in my preference.

If i recall correctly this unit takes barometric pressure into account on the equivalent horizontal range? Other units that would be good for just ranging?

What would BP have to do with non ballistic use?

 

[ChrisAU]

Using the RF to give ballistics correction is also slower than getting a range and looking at a chart in your stock or Lock Screen on your phone, and especially slower than average gun/quick calc method.

I don’t understand this point. With the newer stuff that that spits out the yardage and ballistic correction simultaneously how is that slower than getting a yardage and then consulting a chart? In the last NRL Hunter match I shot I often never even looked at the yardage readout, just my correction. That’s all I needed unless I was going to hold wind.

 

[Brandon.miller.4]

What would BP have to do with non ballistic use?

I was wondering if it changes the equivalent horizontal range based on the BP, some of the wording I read makes it seem so. This is from BHphoto website ,

• Combines data from rangefinder, inclinometer, temperature, and atmospheric pressure with installed ballistic curves to provide hold-over/-under compensation values
• Compensation values displayed as hold-over, adjusted distance to target (EHR)

Just wanting clarification, it is of little importance to me should I decide to go this route

 

[Formidilosus]

I don’t understand this point. With the newer stuff that that spits out the yardage and ballistic correction simultaneously how is that slower than getting a yardage and then consulting a chart? In the last NRL Hunter match I shot I often never even looked at the yardage readout, just my correction. That’s all I needed unless I was going to hold wind.

The Leica, Swaro, Sig, and Vortex all take around 4 seconds to get a reading and show the elevation correction- the Revic’s are nearly instantaneous. I am going to say, based on a tremendous amount of time hunting and shooting in the mountain west that you need the range most times as wind is nearly always present. For most carriages/bullets I am already down and dialing the elevation in the same time that I am waiting for the elevation data in the RF to pop up. Then, add in the time if someone is waiting for the windage data to show, and they are 6-7 seconds behind.
Now, people can say that they are never in a time crunch with shots, and maybe they aren’t or don’t care. In a lot of situations out west, time does matter. Even if it generally doesn’t, being slower is never better than being quicker. My experience is that people generally become a slave to the RF telling them what to dial/hold and have problems with moving animals and stressful situations when things aren’t perfect.

 

[Formidilosus]

I was wondering if it changes the equivalent horizontal range based on the BP, some of the wording I read makes it seem so. This is from BHphoto website ,

• Combines data from rangefinder, inclinometer, temperature, and atmospheric pressure with installed ballistic curves to provide hold-over/-under compensation values
• Compensation values displayed as hold-over, adjusted distance to target (EHR)

Just wanting clarification, it is of little importance to me should I decide to go this route

That’s just when it is giving you elevation data. It doesn’t change the range.

 

[ChrisAU]

The Leica, Swaro, Sig, and Vortex all take around 4 seconds to get a reading and show the elevation correction- the Revic’s are nearly instantaneous. I am going to say, based on a tremendous amount of time hunting and shooting in the mountain west that you need the range most times as wind is nearly always present. For most carriages/bullets I am already down and dialing the elevation in the same time that I am waiting for the elevation data in the RF to pop up. Then, add in the time if someone is waiting for the windage data to show, and they are 6-7 seconds behind.
Now, people can say that they are never in a time crunch with shots, and maybe they aren’t or don’t care. In a lot of situations out west, time does matter. Even if it generally doesn’t, being slower is never better than being quicker. My experience is that people generally become a slave to the RF telling them what to dial/hold and have problems with moving animals and stressful situations when things aren’t perfect.

Ah yeah the cheaper stuff I could see it being a hindrance. But the Sig 8k I used in that match and the BR4 I have now don’t suffer that hindrance. No way I could go back to the range and wait type.

 

[SouthPaw]

Leica clearly hates lefties, every model has only right side buttons. Not the most ideal tripod mounting solutions either with the laser center installed. Small complaints, yes.