Do you trust and support your state/region mule deer biologist?

[270Hunter]

I recently listened to the Rokslide podcast with Jeff Short, speaking specifically about Wyoming he said that they way the mule deer hunts are setup right now in Wyoming it doesn’t affect mule deer population trends, mule deer population levels, or the ability for deer to bounce back after hard winters. To get word for word it’s minute 42:57 to 43:14. However it would seem that some hunters on social media would disagree and are always on the “cut tags to help the herds” band wagon. Even though the biologists just said our hunting doesn’t affect overall deer numbers as stated above.


I will show my bias, I do trust and support the mule deer biologists where I live and hunt. I feel like they are not driven by political agendas, they want healthy mule deer herds, they want hunters to have success, most of them are big buck hunters themselves so the want big bucks on the landscape and I think biologists are always trying to give us hunters more opportunities.


I don’t want this thread to turn into an argument, we don’t need to call out certain biologists or people if we disagree with them. Just a yes,no or 50/50 and why you feel that way!

 

[khart_6882]

It’s clear you are not from Washington State. Anyone who says they have a predator problem in their state would be hard pressed to say they have a worse predator problem than here. Lions are only hunted by calling or luck. Bears only in the fall by spot and stalk, calling or luck. Wolves completely unmanaged. Small population of grizz unmanaged and attempting at every opportunity to bring in more grizz, regardless of where they came from.
And all our biologists ever say is “deer numbers seem fine, it’s predator numbers we are concerned with”

 

[Tmac]

I voted 50/50, but 98/2 is closer to my experience. In 25 ish years of contacting biologists in several western states, there has been only one I no longer trust. His mistake was one of ignoring a small unit and giving so many doe tags the population was seriously hurt. Despite that, I support them all.

 

[Rich M]

Biologists do know more about what they are doing but much of it is statistical - they have trends they follow and if it is within "x", they leave it be. They aren't managing for hunting - I've been told that by biologist and NWR managers..

I'm the first one shouting to stop killing the does. If your overall population drops 20% it takes a 25% increase for the new population to get back to the old number. 100 - 20% = 80. 80 + 25% = 100. Give em a leg up is my opinion. Even just 1 year.

 

[WRO]

As a general rule, nope.


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[270Hunter]

As a general rule, nope.


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Why not? What have they done or not done in your opinion? No need to get super detailed I’m just curious!

 

[PathFinder]

The ones here in Colorado seem to be both competent, and genuinely striving to manage healthy deer herds.
I'm not on board with doe hunts in mountain units, tons of late rifle hunts, or CWD based increased harvest. But the overall picture in Colorado is still pretty decent, and the biologists are engaged with hunters and transparent.

I've never met a single "shut the hunts down" person who was even a mediocre deer hunter. Those people would have a bad deer hunt on the Henries because they're just not good at it.

 

[270Hunter]

The ones here in Colorado seem to be both competent, and genuinely striving to manage healthy deer herds.
I'm not on board with doe hunts in mountain units, tons of late rifle hunts, or CWD based increased harvest. But the overall picture in Colorado is still pretty decent, and the biologists are engaged with hunters and transparent.

I've never met a single "shut the hunts down" person who was even a mediocre deer hunter. Those people would have a bad deer hunt on the Henries because they're just not good at it.

I really appreciate your comment! Really well said! Thank you!

I agree with your last comment about the “shut the hunts down” crowd

 

[270Hunter]

Biologists do know more about what they are doing but much of it is statistical - they have trends they follow and if it is within "x", they leave it be. They aren't managing for hunting - I've been told that by biologist and NWR managers..

I'm the first one shouting to stop killing the does. If your overall population drops 20% it takes a 25% increase for the new population to get back to the old number. 100 - 20% = 80. 80 + 25% = 100. Give em a leg up is my opinion. Even just 1 year.

Thanks for commenting and voting!

Do you think there are situations/herds where doe hunts can be beneficial? For example what about doe hunts because the herd is over carrying-capacity?

 

[WRO]

Why not? What have they done or not done in your opinion? No need to get super detailed I’m just curious!

There’s some good ones, but generally it’s all about maximizing opportunity and harvest over herd health.


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[270Hunter]

Anyone who says they have a predator problem in their state would be hard pressed to say they have a worse predator problem than here.

Not unless they’re from California haha

 

[Customweld]

The biologists that I have had conversations with, I trust. There is a line where biology and politics collide and I think they have the herds health as close to the top as they can. Now the folks that they answer to... not so much.

 

[mighteywhitehunter]

The biologists and DFG commission and officers in CA are a joke, they continue to beat down our Mule deer herds via overhunting, no predator control, and introducing or protecting apex predators from any kind of harvest. I genuinely wonder what they think coyotes, Mountain Lions, black bears, wolves, and soon grizzly bears will eat.... every Mule deer herd in the state is declining but nothing is being done.

Oh wait they are doing something... they are approving the slaughter of every deer on Catalina Island by professional hunters, 15 years after killing every Mule deer and elk on Santa Rosa Island in the same manner. Pretty sad.

 

[graniteghost]

I go back and forth in MT. I think recently they have been trying to be more proactive on management and actually take public opinion into account. However public opinion can frequently be incorrect for how to herd should be managed. East vs. West in this state should not be managed the same way. The habitat and populations are so drastically different that they require independent strategies. I personally have the sentiment that the decline of mule in Montana is due to drought/predation/disease way more than biologists making poor management choices. We as hunters can also choose better management practices. Don’t see a lot of deer/bucks on your weeklong trip to eastern MT? Probably don’t whack a spike for a meat buck the last morning. I still don’t see the allure of nonresidents paying $700 for a deer tag to shoot a forky, but it’s their tag and their choice at the end of the day. They could come and buy whitetail doe tags otc and fill those instead and have them be way cheaper.

 

[Rich M]

Thanks for commenting and voting!

Do you think there are situations/herds where doe hunts can be beneficial? For example what about doe hunts because the herd is over carrying-capacity?

Definitely. There are reasons to shoot does as well as not shoot them.

If you want to reduce a herd, have folks shoot a doe to get a buck tag. If you want to increase a herd, shoot no does. Not exactly rocket science.

The middle ground is what we pay em for.

 

[cbailey1187]

Living in the region Jeff manages I have asked him about the hunter impact on mule deer. Basically his response comes down to the buck to doe ratio. With the number of bucks taken every year does still get bred. Whether they carry the fawn to full term is more environmental impact and the health of the fawn. And the healthier the doe is the more likelihood of a larger antlered deer.
I don’t really like when they just spout out statistics assuming everyone understands statistics. But the science behind mule deer health, population,and genetics is what I believe hunters should pay attention to.

 

[270Hunter]

I go back and forth in MT. I think recently they have been trying to be more proactive on management and actually take public opinion into account. However public opinion can frequently be incorrect for how to herd should be managed. East vs. West in this state should not be managed the same way. The habitat and populations are so drastically different that they require independent strategies. I personally have the sentiment that the decline of mule in Montana is due to drought/predation/disease way more than biologists making poor management choices. We as hunters can also choose better management practices. Don’t see a lot of deer/bucks on your weeklong trip to eastern MT? Probably don’t whack a spike for a meat buck the last morning. I still don’t see the allure of nonresidents paying $700 for a deer tag to shoot a forky, but it’s their tag and their choice at the end of the day. They could come and buy whitetail doe tags otc and fill those instead and have them be way cheaper.

Really well said! Thanks for sharing your opinion!

Unfortunately I think people are scared of going home empty handed and yeah the young bucks are the ones who take the lions share of that harvest.

 

[Rich M]

Really well said! Thanks for sharing your opinion!

Unfortunately I think people are scared of going home empty handed and yeah the young bucks are the ones who take the lions share of that harvest.

I always thought tags should be on a sliding scale. $250 for buck 200 inches or larger, $500 for 150-200 inches. $750 for 120-150 inches, $1,000 for 75 to 120 inches. $1500 for under 75 inches.

Those poor dumb lil forkies need to be protected.

They say antler restriction dont work.

 

[Customweld]

I always thought tags should be on a sliding scale. $250 for buck 200 inches or larger, $500 for 150-200 inches. $750 for 120-150 inches, $1,000 for 75 to 120 inches. $1500 for under 75 inches.

Those poor dumb lil forkies need to be protected.

They say antler restriction dont work.

There is a good rokcast that touches a little on that. It surprised me how many forked horns don’t make it through winter.
One would think a forkie not shot during hunting season would be there next year but statistically many don’t make it through winter.

 

[graniteghost]

There is a good rokcast that touches a little on that. It surprised me how many forked horns don’t make it through winter.
One would think a forkie not shot during hunting season would be there next year but statistically many don’t make it through winter.

Looking back I think most of the deadheads I’ve found have been forkies, so anecdotally that seems correct to me. Do you happen to know which rokcast touched on that? Would be interested in giving it a listen