BC vs MV… Debating between two bullets.

[Rifleman86]

Debating between the badlands bulldozer 2 in 140gr vs 150gr. This is in a 1/8 7 SAUM short action. BC of the 140 is .287 G7 and 150gr is .309 G7. I’ve got a bunch of H4350 that would work well with the 140s but not so much H4381 which would be more ideal for the 150s. MV for the 140s would likely be 3080 (my load for 143gr hammers) and an estimated 2975 for the 150s.

On paper the 140s seem to actually beat the 150s out to my max range of 800 yards at 7500 DA with drop and are the same with wind.

In the past I’ve always chosen the heaviest bullets I can, but it actually looks like the 140s win on paper. Anyone choose MV over BC?

 

[Wapiti1]

That little extra BC the 150 gives you is going to help in the wind so I'd go with that one. It's really splitting hairs, though.

Jeremy

 

[JFK]

The 140’s also win on velocity. Not real familiar with that bullet but it’s a mono, and speed helps them open. All other things being equal, shoot the faster bullet if going mono.

 

[wind gypsy]

H4350 will work just fine with 150s. It's a popular powder with benchrest/fclass guys shooting SAUM with 180s.

Consistent terminal performance is what I'd be most concerned with on those. Doesn't seem like they really mushroom like a barnes or frag as well as a CEB or Hammer.

 

[Ucsdryder]

I’ve never shot a mono bullet but I always have been told speed is king. Especially once they start to slow down. The other thing I’ve personally seen is that you can be super accurate but unless you can call wind precisely, and not many can, you become a mediocre shooter in a hurry. I’ll take a good wind bucking bullet every time, so plug in 10mph cross wind and see how that messes with your numbers.

 

[JakeSCH]

Overthinking is sure fun! But you are putting the cart before the horse. I would buy some of each and see which one you gun shoots better. If one is shooting half minute and the other over a minute you have your answer.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Had a similar situation on my 6.5 PRC. Wanted to run 156 gr Bergers but the 147 gr ELD-M kept edging it out on velocity, maximum distance to hit 1800 fps, accuracy, etc. The margins were pretty small but enough overall to give the ELD-M the nod. Because it shot so good, I did pick up a few additional boxes of the 156 gr Berger bullets in the event I could not get any more 147 gr ELD-M (which I am very well stocked on).

 

[35WhelenAI]

Velocity diff at the 800 yds you stated, is 20 fps. I would not take velocity into account as that is so similar to be academic. I'd take the slightly better momentum of the heavier bullet as bullet weight is a constant and everything else is a variable. Weight helps with on-game performance all else equal and the better bc as stated will help with drift.

 

[Rifleman86]

H4350 will work just fine with 150s. It's a popular powder with benchrest/fclass guys shooting SAUM with 180s.

Consistent terminal performance is what I'd be most concerned with on those. Doesn't seem like they really mushroom like a barnes or frag as well as a CEB or Hammer.

Thanks, yeah I remember reading H4350 was popular with the F class crowd with heavies in the SAUM and I don’t know why I didn’t think about it until now.

I shot 143gr Hammers this year and had a “failure” if you want to call it that. Truth be told I don’t know what happened… Good impact, rolled a bull down the mountain from 500y into some brush. Got over there and he up and vanished. No blood after searching until dark.

I don’t necessarily blame the bullet. Elk are just damn tough critters sometimes and who knows where the impact was despite it looking good through the spotter. It was a quartering away shot, which if I had a do over I wouldn’t take again at that distance. Would’ve waited for a broadside with a little more margin for error. They worked fine later that season from closer in. Plus enough other rave reviews on game I think it was a fluke.

The other rub I have with Hammers is the .200 G7 BC I came up with between my labradar data and real world shot drops to 1000 yards. They might do better for hammer in their rifles, but a .200 BC just gives up too much for me personally at distances 500y and beyond. Between the bad result on that bull and a very “meh” real world BC I’m ready to try something else.

Either way I put an order in for 140s. I’ve read that over-stability is good for terminal performance with monos and everything else is so negligible that gave the 140s an edge. If they don’t shoot I’ll try the 150s.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Hell no you can't blame the bullet... 500 yards with a light for caliber (mono or not) 7mm projectile designed to shed petals to continue on with a bullet diameter shank doesn't need to be done on a quartering away shot! That's just not a decision to debate.

 

[Jasent]

I used the 205’s this year on my buck. Very happy with the results. From what I see you could just flip a coin

 

[35WhelenAI]

I used the 205’s this year on my buck. Very happy with the results. From what I see you could just flip a coin

205's? A .338?

 

[Jasent]

205's? A .338?

.308 205gr super bulldozer 2’s in 1:8 28” 300wm

 

[Rifleman86]

Hell no you can't blame the bullet... 500 yards with a light for caliber (mono or not) 7mm projectile designed to shed petals to continue on with a bullet diameter shank doesn't need to be done on a quartering away shot! That's just not a decision to debate.

I emailed Hammer and asked them if they had any thoughts my experience in that scenario… They said they couldn’t speculate as far as what happened obviously. I mentioned that in hindsight I should’ve tried to wait for broadside and I wouldn’t personally take anything but a broadside shot beyond 300 yards after this experience… I had speculated I might not have had adequate penetration to created a blood trail from that angle. They said they wouldn’t hesitate to take that shot personally, and they use the same bullet in a 280 AI and would still expect complete penetration.

I still think quartering away wouldn’t be a shot I’d take again with this caliber from that distance, but the guys making the bullets disagree. YMMV. Part of the problem was the fact he rolled down the mountain nearly instantaneously so follow up shots couldn’t happen. Sucks. Nobody wants it to happen, but that’s why it’s hunting. Best you can do is try to learn from it.

ETA Regardless my “failure” with Hammers weren’t the impotence for this thread, I still think they are good bullets. I don’t want to derail this thread into a fight over Hammers, whether quartering away shots are acceptable at distance, caliber choice, etc... I just want to try something new with a bit better BC, and I’d like to stick with monos and I’m a big believer in penetration and exit wounds which monos are known for.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Did some reading on the Bulldozer 2 mentioned in the first post. I like it. We share a common likeness to use mono bullets. As well, appreciate your openness with an outcome none of us want to see in the field.

I'm surprised hammer would advocate for a 500 yard quartering away shot with a light for caliber projectile that is designed to shed 30-40% of its weight as it expands. With that shot angle, it hasn't made the vitals before that happens. Based on those published parameters of bullet performance a remaining 84-100 grain 7mm caliber diameter shank is left to put the vitals out of commission.

The beauty of monos, and why I have been shooting them (not Hammer's) is they do retain virtually 100% of their weight, by design, for great penetration. Weight is momentum and 100% of whatever available momentum is a better bet for penetration on hard angle shots than 60%-70% that occurs shortly after impact with a mono designed to shed weight.

In any case you're gonna go to a heavier bullet to get a better BC, and weight is always a constant so the more the better within the parameters needed.

 

[huntnful]

What is making you want to shoot the mono's in the first place? I'd lean more towards the 175 & 180 bergers. For what it's worth, I shoot monos currently, but lead is far superior at 500 yards and further. I shoot the hammers, but agree with your whole statement. They may not be to blame for the non recovery of the bull, but the low BC paired with your fairly low MV would send me searching as well. I just worked up a load for the 155 Hammers at 3400fps in my 28 Nosler. I consider that a 700 yard max load. A 143 at 3080fps would most definitely have me searching for more, which would send me toward a lead bullet.

 

[Rifleman86]

What is making you want to shoot the mono's in the first place? I'd lean more towards the 175 & 180 bergers. For what it's worth, I shoot monos currently, but lead is far superior at 500 yards and further. I shoot the hammers, but agree with your whole statement. They may not be to blame for the non recovery of the bull, but the low BC paired with your fairly low MV would send me searching as well. I just worked up a load for the 155 Hammers at 3400fps in my 28 Nosler. I consider that a 700 yard max load. A 143 at 3080fps would most definitely have me searching for more, which would send me toward a lead bullet.

I’ve had issues with thinner jacketed bullets close in in the past. Namely ELD-X’s. I know Bergers are different but they are thin jacketed non bonded, so the same theories apply.

Thinner skinned game such as antelope, whitetail, or even mule deer? Absolutely. No issues with Bergers, ELD-X, etc. But elk are different IMO, much bigger and much tougher animals. Penetration is the name of the game.

The other part is this, I wouldn’t necessarily consider myself a long range hunter. Long range shooter? Yes. Will I take shots beyond the traditional 400 yards? Also yes, only under certain conditions however. If I can work closer though I will.

The only reason I took that 500 yard poke on that bull is it was dead still and terrain dictated a couldn’t work any closer. So I give more consideration to terminal performance at short range even though long shots aren’t out of the question.

That said I think that .200 BC might have played a factor this year, more so than the terminal performance of the bullet itself. Yeah, it was dead still to me, but it could’ve been 5-10mph in the middle of the basin. That’s enough to make a kill shot turn into a gut shot with that shot angle at that distance. Unfortunately I’ll never know.

 

[huntnful]

I’ve had issues with thinner jacketed bullets close in in the past. Namely ELD-X’s. I know Bergers are different but they are thin jacketed non bonded, so the same theories apply.

Thinner skinned game such as antelope, whitetail, or even mule deer? Absolutely. No issues with Bergers, ELD-X, etc. But elk are different IMO, much bigger and much tougher animals. Penetration is the name of the game.

The other part is this, I wouldn’t necessarily consider myself a long range hunter. Long range shooter? Yes. Will I take shots beyond the traditional 400 yards? Also yes, only under certain conditions however. If I can work closer though I will.

The only reason I took that 500 yard poke on that bull is it was dead still and terrain dictated a couldn’t work any closer. So I give more consideration to terminal performance at short range even though long shots aren’t out of the question.

That said I think that .200 BC might have played a factor this year, more so than the terminal performance of the bullet itself. Yeah, it was dead still to me, but it could’ve been 5-10mph in the middle of the basin. That’s enough to make a kill shot turn into a gut shot with that shot angle at that distance. Unfortunately I’ll never know.

Well in that case, I 100% agree with you. Berger’s aren’t ideal for close range impacts. Monos are a tough situation because of their poor BC’s in general. It’s almost like you need to run an extra big cartridge just so you can use a decent weight mono bullet to get some higher BC and retained down range velocity. Did you look up what your impact velocity was on that elk?

 

[35WhelenAI]

I hear a lot about Hammer bullets being way off on bc. What gives?

 

[Rifleman86]

I hear a lot about Hammer bullets being way off on bc. What gives?

Yeah I don’t know… I do recall that they got in sort of a “spat” if you want to call it that with Brian Litz because Litz’ numbers were way lower than what Hammer advertises. For example Litz lists the .284” 155gr Hammer as a .206 G7 while Hammer advertises .274. That’s a significant difference.

I think the Hammer folks are great people, the bullets work well on game and the customer service top notch. But when it comes to BC numbers I think Litz is the more trustworthy source.

Between the above and the BC I came up with via labradar and at the range I’d say they are generous in what they advertise to say the least. Their numbers might work in their rifles, but I wouldn’t recommend anyone print off a dope chart and hit the field without trueing.