Arrow build help

Joined
Jul 13, 2022
Messages
99
I know that there are probably 1,000,000 of these threads but as I am pressed for time between conference calls I wanted to ask a quick question.

I am new to archery as of July 4th (Murica!) when I purchased a 21’ Hoyt Ventum 33.

After firing my first bow I was addicted and decided to buy up on the frame while piecing together the attachments. After shooting for a few weeks I was so hopelessly addicted that I started spending more money than I ever thought I would on components and have now moved on to arrow build for hunting season (white tail and potentially black bear in AR, KS, NC, and OK).

I say all of that to ask this; after spending hundreds of hours diving deep into every rabbit hole I could find I came up with a build. My concern is that 99% of my knowledge is academic and I was hoping someone with experience could confirm whether I was crazy or not before ordering parts. Experience always wins and it’s the piece of the equation that I’m short on.

The key measurable’s are as follows:

Draw length: 30.5
Draw: 74lbs
Arrow: Sirius Orion 250 (.166)
Broadhead: Ironwill SB200g (Snyder Core)
Inserts: 15g titanium HIT, 10g Titanium collar
Fletchings: 3x AAE max hunters
Nock: Nockturnal G lighted nock

According to qSpine, the results are as follows:
4a3d5543622723b4cf33e7cf8bcd41d0.jpg



My thoughts in this hypothetical build are simply to maximize broadhead weight and minimize insert requirements with decent FOC so that I’m not shooting a 700g arrow and can avoid drawing back potential mortars at longer ranges.

On paper the results seem like I should order the parts but… experience may pose questions that I haven’t even thought of and demonstrate how expensive ignorance can be


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Bachto

Well Known Rokslider
Joined
Dec 13, 2018
Messages
215
Location
West Richland, WA
only thing I would change is go to a 4 fletch for fixed 2 blade broadheads, especially since you are shooting so fast you might find with a 3 fletch they are a little difficult to tune as a beginner. either way you can tell you have done your research and I would go for it.
 

Bump79

Well Known Rokslider
Joined
Oct 5, 2020
Messages
423
only thing I would change is go to a 4 fletch for fixed 2 blade broadheads, especially since you are shooting so fast you might find with a 3 fletch they are a little difficult to tune as a beginner. either way you can tell you have done your research and I would go for it.
I've played around with 4 fletch in many configurations. I haven't noticed a difference at 294 fps in accuracy between my setup in 3 or 4 shooting many fixed heads. But others seem to get benefits.
 

Bachto

Well Known Rokslider
Joined
Dec 13, 2018
Messages
215
Location
West Richland, WA
I've played around with 4 fletch in many configurations. I haven't noticed a difference at 294 fps in accuracy between my setup in 3 or 4 shooting many fixed heads. But others seem to get benefits.
Interesting! I guess bow to bow and exact setup to exact set up this can vary. I should have said "it could make it easier" But you are right it potentially would not help at all.
 

Samdemarais

Well Known Rokslider
Joined
Jul 27, 2017
Messages
641
I know that there are probably 1,000,000 of these threads but as I am pressed for time between conference calls I wanted to ask a quick question.

I am new to archery as of July 4th (Murica!) when I purchased a 21’ Hoyt Ventum 33.

After firing my first bow I was addicted and decided to buy up on the frame while piecing together the attachments. After shooting for a few weeks I was so hopelessly addicted that I started spending more money than I ever thought I would on components and have now moved on to arrow build for hunting season (white tail and potentially black bear in AR, KS, NC, and OK).

I say all of that to ask this; after spending hundreds of hours diving deep into every rabbit hole I could find I came up with a build. My concern is that 99% of my knowledge is academic and I was hoping someone with experience could confirm whether I was crazy or not before ordering parts. Experience always wins and it’s the piece of the equation that I’m short on.

The key measurable’s are as follows:

Draw length: 30.5
Draw: 74lbs
Arrow: Sirius Orion 250 (.166)
Broadhead: Ironwill SB200g (Snyder Core)
Inserts: 15g titanium HIT, 10g Titanium collar
Fletchings: 3x AAE max hunters
Nock: Nockturnal G lighted nock

According to qSpine, the results are as follows:
4a3d5543622723b4cf33e7cf8bcd41d0.jpg



My thoughts in this hypothetical build are simply to maximize broadhead weight and minimize insert requirements with decent FOC so that I’m not shooting a 700g arrow and can avoid drawing back potential mortars at longer ranges.

On paper the results seem like I should order the parts but… experience may pose questions that I haven’t even thought of and demonstrate how expensive ignorance can be


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Sweet arrow set up but for what you are hunting and your novice skill set I would just buy a gold tip hunter xt 300s with a standard insert, 125 gn 2.0 sevr and some q2i vanes and turn your bow down to 68-70. Will be more forgiving and less complicated
 
OP
Christopher.Reed
Joined
Jul 13, 2022
Messages
99
Sweet arrow set up but for what you are hunting and your novice skill set I would just buy a gold tip hunter xt 300s with a standard insert, 125 gn 2.0 sevr and some q2i vanes and turn your bow down to 68-70. Will be more forgiving and less complicated

For what it’s worth; I have hunted with a rifle my whole life and am only new to the bow piece.

I can shoot a 3” group fairly consistently (I get the occasional one or two flyers out of 8 arrows which I’m still working on) at 30 yards with the gold tip 300 hunters I bought when I purchased my bow. I only practice out to 30 yards as I normally hunt wooded areas but; I am an obsessive person and when I latch onto something (as I have bow hunting) I look to learn everything about it. I will start shooting longer ranges soon and am hoping to attend the Oklahoma TAC this spring.

After diving through all of the arrow build worm holes I decided that as in everything; moderation is the key. Why can’t someone shoot a lower weight, high FOC, fast arrow and kill all the birds with one stone? Granted this is an inexperienced and academic viewpoint that will probably be proven wrong at significant financial cost but I have to answer the question myself.

It’s the nuance of Archery that drives me and I will continue putting 100+ arrows down range daily until I feel proficient and if I lessen the complexity of that process I worry that I will loose interest. While I appreciate your experience and advice, it’s simply not the road I wish to travel which will probably result in regret.

I’ll update you once I build these arrows and probably admit you were right and could have saved myself $500 .

Note: regarding what I am hunting; I plan on hunting Blackbear in Hyde county, NC in December as my in-laws have 65 acres untouched, prime acres and that is what’s fueling my current maximum kinetic energy obsession. While it’s likely that I won’t even see a bear; if I see a 900lb bear, I would rather over-kill it than under-kill it.


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Samdemarais

Well Known Rokslider
Joined
Jul 27, 2017
Messages
641
For what it’s worth; I have hunted with a rifle my whole life and am only new to the bow piece.

I can shoot a 3” group fairly consistently (I get the occasional one or two flyers out of 8 arrows which I’m still working on) at 30 yards with the gold tip 300 hunters I bought when I purchased my bow. I only practice out to 30 yards as I normally hunt wooded areas but; I am an obsessive person and when I latch onto something (as I have bow hunting) I look to learn everything about it. I will start shooting longer ranges soon and am hoping to attend the Oklahoma TAC this spring.

After diving through all of the arrow build worm holes I decided that as in everything; moderation is the key. Why can’t someone shoot a lower weight, high FOC, fast arrow and kill all the birds with one stone? Granted this is an inexperienced and academic viewpoint that will probably be proven wrong at significant financial cost but I have to answer the question myself.

It’s the nuance of Archery that drives me and I will continue putting 100+ arrows down range daily until I feel proficient and if I lessen the complexity of that process I worry that I will loose interest. While I appreciate your experience and advice, it’s simply not the road I wish to travel which will probably result in regret.

I’ll update you once I build these arrows and probably admit you were right and could have saved myself $500 .

Note: regarding what I am hunting; I plan on hunting Blackbear in Hyde county, NC in December as my in-laws have 65 acres untouched, prime acres and that is what’s fueling my current maximum kinetic energy obsession. While it’s likely that I won’t even see a bear; if I see a 900lb bear, I would rather over-kill it than under-kill it.


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Ya for sure man. I am just saying I just spent the
Last 7 years building arrows and going down Al the rabbit holes and realized after all that time I should just be shooting what I started with 425-475 gn arrow with a quality broadhead. Lots of people kill stuff with fixed blades but they are much more critical on your form and in hunting situations you often have awkward stances and clothing and conditions and mechanicals are just more forgiving and so are tighter pin gaps
 
OP
Christopher.Reed
Joined
Jul 13, 2022
Messages
99
Ya for sure man. I am just saying I just spent the
Last 7 years building arrows and going down Al the rabbit holes and realized after all that time I should just be shooting what I started with 425-475 gn arrow with a quality broadhead. Lots of people kill stuff with fixed blades but they are much more critical on your form and in hunting situations you often have awkward stances and clothing and conditions and mechanicals are just more forgiving and so are tighter pin gaps

Not disagreeing with your experience at all and it will probably prove to be the right answer. I’m also very happy that you were willing to take the time to offer it. I’m simply trying to provide another perspective from those of us that are new to bow hunting. Anyone can kill something with a rifle and it’s the challenge of the rabbit holes that draw some of us.

I’m smart enough to know I’m an idiot chasing something that’s probably not realistic and will probably be saying the same thing you are said seven years from now but it’s still a rabbit hole I want to dive down. I was just looking for input from a few old hands on the arrow building process before spending the money on the components.

Now that the components are ordered I’m pot committed and I’m probably just being defensive of that decision .

BTW what are pin gaps? JK


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907SHEEP

Junior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
15
For what it’s worth; I have hunted with a rifle my whole life and am only new to the bow piece.

I can shoot a 3” group fairly consistently (I get the occasional one or two flyers out of 8 arrows which I’m still working on) at 30 yards with the gold tip 300 hunters I bought when I purchased my bow. I only practice out to 30 yards as I normally hunt wooded areas but; I am an obsessive person and when I latch onto something (as I have bow hunting) I look to learn everything about it. I will start shooting longer ranges soon and am hoping to attend the Oklahoma TAC this spring.

After diving through all of the arrow build worm holes I decided that as in everything; moderation is the key. Why can’t someone shoot a lower weight, high FOC, fast arrow and kill all the birds with one stone? Granted this is an inexperienced and academic viewpoint that will probably be proven wrong at significant financial cost but I have to answer the question myself.

It’s the nuance of Archery that drives me and I will continue putting 100+ arrows down range daily until I feel proficient and if I lessen the complexity of that process I worry that I will loose interest. While I appreciate your experience and advice, it’s simply not the road I wish to travel which will probably result in regret.

I’ll update you once I build these arrows and probably admit you were right and could have saved myself $500 .

Note: regarding what I am hunting; I plan on hunting Blackbear in Hyde county, NC in December as my in-laws have 65 acres untouched, prime acres and that is what’s fueling my current maximum kinetic energy obsession. While it’s likely that I won’t even see a bear; if I see a 900lb bear, I would rather over-kill it than under-kill it.


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Do you live in NC? I’m in Pinehurst and have lots of bear hunting questions for you.


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OP
Christopher.Reed
Joined
Jul 13, 2022
Messages
99
I live in Arkansas but will my in-laws live in NC and have hunting property on the inter coastal. My father in-law is the family bear expert and I plan on soaking up his knowledge this fall.


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Kularrow

Well Known Rokslider
Joined
Feb 26, 2021
Messages
207
I wouldn’t use an expensive IW SB head on a bear but that’s just me. You put a bad shot on him you’ll never find it.
 

moxford

Well Known Rokslider
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
219
Location
San Jose, California, United States
Why can’t someone shoot a lower weight, high FOC, fast arrow and kill all the birds with one stone? Granted this is an inexperienced and academic viewpoint that will probably be proven wrong at significant financial cost but I have to answer the question myself.

Arrow spine.

Stiff arrows to mitigate high point-weight need to be stiff, and stiff is heavy. And heavy is slower. So you bump up your draw weight. And then you need stiffer arrows. Which are heavier. And then you lose your desired FOC. So you up the point weight ...

Question is: If you're already passing through, do you need to pass-through more? Sure, you CAN, but why, outside of the niche/novelty aspect?

I built some heavies, in the 720-ish range. Don't remember exactly. Was fun. Speed was around 248 fps, but target penetration was impressive, and the bow felt amazing (dead quiet, low vibration, etc) High FOC, all of that, but trying to get to EFOC at a 32" draw was pretty much impossible at the time.

Anything over 40 yards and I understood the term "lobbing logs." It became not fun. As in, seriously unfun. The novelty wore off being so restricted, so I swapped back out to a more traditional setting.

If you do go crazy heavy, build a half and not a full dozen. It's good learning, and it's fun to do, but you build in the initial post looks really good.

IWs are expensive. Buy the IWs dead last. Like, after you've done a first-pass tuning with field points. Figure out where reality lies, because qSpine's a theory tool, and you may need to adjust a little as you actually build them out and 200s may not be perfect, or you may need to adjust insert/collars if you want to stay with 200s.

Cheers,
-mox
 
OP
Christopher.Reed
Joined
Jul 13, 2022
Messages
99
As a follow up; I finally built the arrow and learned a lot (which was really the point). A few things I learned:

1. I need 31” carbon to carbon to insure I don’t mistakenly take off a finger because I caught a severe case of buck fever.

2. Building arrows is actually very easy and nothing to be intimidated by.

3. Adding 100ish grains in arrow weight lowers my point of impact roughly 3.5” at 20 yards.

In my first attempt; I fletched the arrow with blazers (first time fletching) with a right helical bitz. While the arrow looked great, its performance was very erratic so I went into the shop and checked with the professionals.

It turned out my sight’s 2nd and 3rd axis were caddywompus which they fixed.I was still concerned that the blazers weren’t providing enough rear stabilization for that long of an arrow so I had them change out the vanes to 2.75 TAC drivers @ 5 degree right helical.

Now the arrow shoots like a freaking laser and hits exactly where my pin was when the shot broke every freaking time. I only made one of them as a proof of concept but out of 20-30 shots and haven’t had a single flyer. Suffice it to say that 11 more will be following this one.

Final arrow weight came in just below what QSpine predicted with the longer C2C at 531.8 (532.23 was the prediction) but color me impressed with both QSpine and this dang arrow .

6c562ad15f99fd966311d0b2735ea1d5.jpg



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OP
Christopher.Reed
Joined
Jul 13, 2022
Messages
99
I do have one question after building this arrow if anyone has the time and inclination to indulge an aspiring archer:

If the spine is measured at 29” and I am shooting 31” carbon to carbon, the result should be a slightly weaker spine than advertised but; how does the rigidity of 3” of HIT factor into that equation?

It seems like the result would be the equivalent of a 28” dynamic spine but that’s just an assumption .


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OP
Christopher.Reed
Joined
Jul 13, 2022
Messages
99
Arrow spine.

Stiff arrows to mitigate high point-weight need to be stiff, and stiff is heavy. And heavy is slower. So you bump up your draw weight. And then you need stiffer arrows. Which are heavier. And then you lose your desired FOC. So you up the point weight ...

Question is: If you're already passing through, do you need to pass-through more? Sure, you CAN, but why, outside of the niche/novelty aspect?

I built some heavies, in the 720-ish range. Don't remember exactly. Was fun. Speed was around 248 fps, but target penetration was impressive, and the bow felt amazing (dead quiet, low vibration, etc) High FOC, all of that, but trying to get to EFOC at a 32" draw was pretty much impossible at the time.

Anything over 40 yards and I understood the term "lobbing logs." It became not fun. As in, seriously unfun. The novelty wore off being so restricted, so I swapped back out to a more traditional setting.

If you do go crazy heavy, build a half and not a full dozen. It's good learning, and it's fun to do, but you build in the initial post looks really good.

IWs are expensive. Buy the IWs dead last. Like, after you've done a first-pass tuning with field points. Figure out where reality lies, because qSpine's a theory tool, and you may need to adjust a little as you actually build them out and 200s may not be perfect, or you may need to adjust insert/collars if you want to stay with 200s.

Cheers,
-mox

Arrow spine.

Stiff arrows to mitigate high point-weight need to be stiff, and stiff is heavy. And heavy is slower. So you bump up your draw weight. And then you need stiffer arrows. Which are heavier. And then you lose your desired FOC. So you up the point weight ...

Question is: If you're already passing through, do you need to pass-through more? Sure, you CAN, but why, outside of the niche/novelty aspect?

I built some heavies, in the 720-ish range. Don't remember exactly. Was fun. Speed was around 248 fps, but target penetration was impressive, and the bow felt amazing (dead quiet, low vibration, etc) High FOC, all of that, but trying to get to EFOC at a 32" draw was pretty much impossible at the time.

Anything over 40 yards and I understood the term "lobbing logs." It became not fun. As in, seriously unfun. The novelty wore off being so restricted, so I swapped back out to a more traditional setting.

If you do go crazy heavy, build a half and not a full dozen. It's good learning, and it's fun to do, but you build in the initial post looks really good.

IWs are expensive. Buy the IWs dead last. Like, after you've done a first-pass tuning with field points. Figure out where reality lies, because qSpine's a theory tool, and you may need to adjust a little as you actually build them out and 200s may not be perfect, or you may need to adjust insert/collars if you want to stay with 200s.

Cheers,
-mox

Thank you for sharing your insight!

I was hoping to get a little more FOC, without going super heavy, and keeping the meat of the weight in the broad head rather than inserts. It made sense to me and I’m pretty happy with the results but I admittedly haven’t shot past 20 yards. I was just happy that it so consistently hit exactly where my pin was. While my original arrows are fun to shoot, their inconsistency made me question my bow, my form, and ultimately my sanity at times.

Was it worth the cost? Probably not as my original arrows were $7.00 ea. and my new arrows are around $40 .


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moxford

Well Known Rokslider
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
219
Location
San Jose, California, United States
Glad you found the fixes and are happy with it!

Your arrow, bareshaft, will likely come off the rest spinning. If your helical doesn't match, you get a touch of a "knuckleball" effect until the vanes overpower the natural spin. Makes a difference? HS cameras shows it, but downrange most don't seem to feel it's a big deal. Personally, I'll be matching my spin so it's not fighting at all.

2nd and 3rd won't affect your arrow flight on a flat range (assuming no holding-over/off) so the extra steering from the TACs is "fixing" the paradox and form errors as it flies down range. Question is: where do your bareshafts land? Get those to hit close to your fletched arrows by fixing the bow-tune, and Blazers will work fine. (IMO, TACs are better and quieter anyways, but having the more steering out back may be masking other issues underneath.) The slightly "on the softer side" spine will be a little more forgiving, too.

Static spine is measured by hanging a weight off the middle, and using a 28" shaft. I would not expect much effect at all with the HIT, but I've never tested it. I'm sure it makes the shaft "virtually shorter" as the HIT is stiffening up and supporting the shaft a little, but probably not much more than a regular insert. I haven't used a HIT in a very, very, long time, sorry. If you're feeling academic, test it and let us know. :)

FOC is nice. But overrated these days because to get there you do have to sacrifice. TANSTAAFL.

Your arrow, at 18% with that weight and FPS, is pretty killer for hunting most/all of NA. However, that 18% and weight is going to hurt your max range because your sight housing is likely to run out of travel. (Not including sliders/dialers.) Why? Because the tip goes up, and the tip goes down. The arc is slightly more "triangular" than an arrow with less FOC ... and the more balanced FOC tends to fly a bit farther naturally. FOC does help stability though. (Think, playing darts in the bar.)

Also, as you weight up to focus on FOC, you get heavier, and that make quick range estimations more critical - a little misjudgment has more repercussions vertically. If you have a rangefinder, time, are not hunting in heavy overhanging brush, and don't need to shoot super far, all is good.

Where you're at on speed is really good and you won't have issues, but don't beat yourself up (seriously) about wanting "more FOC." You're good. Go shoot. :)

Cheers,
-mox
 
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