Argali sleeping bag review in the works

[Brad@Argali]

+1. Seems like an influx lately of companies making bags overseas with inferior down/product and charging WM/FF prices. I don’t get the market for it but there must be one…. Argali could hit a sweet spot with the US down and offer the bag at the $400-$500ish mark.

The prices will be announced on the 7th, but I will say there is no way we could hit that low of a price point because the down and materials we use are premium and expensive. However, if you compare our bags to those brands they will be less expensive for comparable options. And, I would put our quality up against both WM and FF, both of which I own, have used extensively. Our bags are built differently than both of those brands and have features that I genuinely think set them apart. I realize that's a bold statement, but I'll stand by it after the extensive field and lab testing we've done for the past 2+ years.

If you want to cut costs on a sleeping bag, you use chinese down and cheaper materials for the shell and lining. We did neither of those things. Most of the cost of sleeping bags is in the materials, not in the labor. Our Dry Loft Down comes from Eastern Europe and is processed here in the U.S. We process it here for quality control reasons and to ensure all the down in our bags meets our specs.

 

[Brad@Argali]

Robby, I agree. What I have heard in the past was center zip let cold in and heat out. But seems most current designs have perfected it with good baffle/zipper design.

I mean I'm a fan of the Stone Glacier Chilkoot 15 and has been my go-to, but the Sitka is going to get the nod for rest of season and if this goes well, I will use all next year. This is due to how butter smooth the zipper is and center zip design. Also, the hood needs to be mentioned. This design eliminates the need for a neck baffle. Its is more like a hood on your puffy jacket so when you sleep on your side it turns with your head.

the only thing I see that the Chilkoot might have an advantage is the Pertex nylon shell. I think the sitka wets out faster just in my quick test using sink water.

Zippers are sources of heat loss/drafting. Even a great draft tube over the zipper doesn't eliminate heat loss. Our focus with the Alpine series was to focus on warmth and comfort above all else, and IMO you can't do that with a center zip. We used what we call Body Mapped Baffling on our bags, which mirror the human heat loss index. The center of your chest is where you emit more heat than anywhere else on your body. Putting a zipper there has a trade-off as a result. I know my friend Robby is ok with that tradeoff, but if you're trying to make a bag with comfort temp ratings, it isn't something that is feasible without adding a lot more down to the bag, which increases weight and cost.

 

[Brad@Argali]

it makes me wonder why most of the industry is side-zipe and what the benefit is?

Heat loss! Center zips, even with a great draft tube, will draft. No getting around it.

 

[Brad@Argali]

The US down part is surprising.

The quality of the down is perhaps the single most important item in a sleeping bag. Our Dry Loft Down is from Eastern Europe, processed here in the US for quality control reasons to ensure every ounce of it is top notch.

 

[Brad@Argali]

Looks like argali is using non treated down?

Yes, untreated. Almost all DWR treated down uses a parafin (wax) based coating. Wax based coatings over time cause down clumping, which reduces the ability of your bag to re-loft. The primary reason companies use treated down is because it is believed that treated down is needed to maintain loft in wet/humid conditions. With our testing, we found this to be almost completely unfounded as untreated down has natural oils that make it incredibly water resistant. We have a water submersion test comparing treated and untreated down coming out soon that I think you'll find interesting. Treated down comes at a cost, and the perceived upside is largely just marketing jargon in my opinion.

 

[robby denning]

Heat loss! Center zips, even with a great draft tube, will draft. No getting around it.

I might accept some heat loss for a center zip.

 

[sndmn11]

The quality of the down is perhaps the single most important item in a sleeping bag. Our Dry Loft Down is from Eastern Europe, processed here in the US for quality control reasons to ensure every ounce of it is top notch.

That makes a lot more sense for it to be coming from Europe, then finished here, and I am glad you responded.

 

[bergie]

If WM and FF could get hunting influences to promote the products, everything else would die an agonizing death.

I hate what influencers have become, but it's the reality of marketing these days. The big two are better than everything else but they're not marketed to hunters. You'll never see Peax, SG or any other hunting bag on K2 or Everest.

I actually had to look up WM and FF as I have never heard of them but will certainly be looking into them in the future.

As far as your hatred for influencers goes I feel the same way, but have to say that I don't think Argali, at least for now, panders to the same crowd and that is refreshing. I have never seen a guy with his ears tucked into his hat killing for Instagram likes, or a guy trespassing to kill a deer so he can sell more product pimping Argali gear. For that simple reason alone I buy Argali and so far have not been disappointed in the quality of their gear.

 

[IBen]

Please consider a taffeta nylon lining over polyester. Nylon in general is more comfortable than polyester and taffeta nylon is the absolute best. Either way nylon>polyester

 

[Brad@Argali]

Please consider a taffeta nylon lining over polyester. Nylon in general is more comfortable than polyester and taffeta nylon is the absolute best. Either way nylon>polyester

Thats good feedback to hear and I appreciate it. Sounds like you have some experience with fabrics. However, in my experience nylon is not more comfortable than poly. I looked at hundreds of fabrics for this product line from about 3 dozen different fabric mills and recyled poly fabrics are almost always softer than any nylon product. Nylons tend to be stiffer and more durable in lighter weights, which is their key advantage when you get down to 10D fabrics. Poly's tend to be much softer and more comfortable.

There is so much variability with taffetas and poly fabrics that it's hard to say one is unequivically more comfortable than another since there are almost endless companies that make both of those types of fabrics, and the softeness (hand feel) and quality is a function of the weave, who makes it, dying process and type of thread they use. That said, the nylon shell we use on our Alpine system is a Pertex fabric, and that fabric is the softess and most comfortable nylon I've every seen or touched and that's why we used it. So, I think you'll be happy with the shell fabric. We do use a poly fabric for the lining, and it is butter soft.

 

[Brad@Argali]

I might accept some heat loss for a center zip.

I know you would!

 

[j3h8]

Any possible way you would eventually offer a version with a center zip? Are the tradeoffs too great of a penalty in weight for this to fit the mold of what your bag is designed for?

As you probably know, center zip gives much more versatility allowing you to use a warmer rated bag in warmer temps by draping the bag like a quilt. I have used a 0° bag in 40° weather and been quite comfortable in it. Only thing I wish a company would design is a way to cinch/fold the hood down into the bag and hold it there so it allows a bit more flexibility.

This is opposite of the current marketing where the pitch is you need xx rated bag for xx rated temps leading you to own several different bags. Great for the companies marketing them, bad for my wallet.

 

[Brad@Argali]

Any possible way you would eventually offer a version with a center zip? Are the tradeoffs too great of a penalty in weight for this to fit the mold of what your bag is designed for?

As you probably know, center zip gives much more versatility allowing you to use a warmer rated bag in warmer temps by draping the bag like a quilt. I have used a 0° bag in 40° weather and been quite comfortable in it. Only thing I wish a company would design is a way to cinch/fold the hood down into the bag and hold it there so it allows a bit more flexibility.

This is opposite of the current marketing where the pitch is you need xx rated bag for xx rated temps leading you to own several different bags. Great for the companies marketing them, bad for my wallet.

I never say never on anything, but we wanted to make the warmest, most comfortable system we could, and a center zip runs counter to our warmth focus, particularly in an ultralight package. You can also unzip a side zip bag and use it like a quilt in warmer weather if you'd like.

I'll have more detail on our temp ratings, but our temp ratings are based on comfort ratings, not survival ratings, so a 20 degree bag is designed to keep the average person warm down to that temperature. Some of our testers that sleep warm used our 20 bag well below 20 and were warm.

 

[j3h8]

I never say never on anything, but we wanted to make the warmest, most comfortable system we could, and a center zip runs counter to our warmth focus, particularly in an ultralight package. You can also unzip a side zip bag and use it like a quilt in warmer weather if you'd like.

I'll have more detail on our temp ratings, but our temp ratings are based on comfort ratings, not survival ratings, so a 20 degree bag is designed to keep the average person warm down to that temperature. Some of our testers that sleep warm used our 20 bag well below 20 and were warm.

I have in fact used side zip bags the same way. It does work. Quite well surprisingly. Just not ideal. Then again neither is the center zip, albeit it does work better. Guess this is why I own several bags and quilts of varying ratings.

Having bags show real average-folk warmth ratings should be done by more companies.

 

[Fins_N_Tines]

Yes, untreated. Almost all DWR treated down uses a parafin (wax) based coating. Wax based coatings over time cause down clumping, which reduces the ability of your bag to re-loft. The primary reason companies use treated down is because it is believed that treated down is needed to maintain loft in wet/humid conditions. With our testing, we found this to be almost completely unfounded as untreated down has natural oils that make it incredibly water resistant. We have a water submersion test comparing treated and untreated down coming out soon that I think you'll find interesting. Treated down comes at a cost, and the perceived upside is largely just marketing jargon in my opinion.

Brad, I actually prefer untreated for future bag purchases. I have had similar results. In the field (real world) I have not seen any added performance in treated down. I have a a couple folks that have worked for some big name brands say 850 fill power treated down is more like 750 - 780 because the treatment makes it less fluffy and more clumpy. I am excited to see your product and the testing.