Alpine pack goats

[jlw0142]

Would like the opinion of someone who knows a lot about pack goats. I am planning to get some pack goats in the (somewhat) near future. Was really just thinking about getting 4 Alpines. I don’t want a large herd and will often be hunting solo, so would just like 4-6 goats that can haul about 50 lbs each. Should I diversify, or can I just stick with alpines? I think oberhalsi are too small for my liking. What about hybrids?


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[elkhunter505]

Not sure if you’re planning on using them in bighorn or mountain goat territory, but if so, please reconsider another type of stock due to the disease risk.

 

[Bama67]

Alpines are the base stock for most people. I had some, they are amazing animals but I found Alpines more aggressive than others so they can sometimes beat up on one another.
Most packgoat breeders are doing mixed breeds now, but the base stock will be Alpine. But they toss in some Saanen, Sables, even some Boer and Kiko in some.

The North American Packgoat Association page on Facebook is your best bet for good info.

 

[Bama67]

The disease thing has been pretty much debunked.

 

[jlw0142]

The disease thing has been pretty much debunked.

That’s what I thought…but I was just going to let it go because it comes up on literally every thread. Thanks for reinforcing.


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[elkhunter505]

The disease thing has been pretty much debunked.

Can someone send me where this occurred because I work on bighorn sheep and I can tell you that goats have and will continue to kill sheep through disease spread. Even wild sheep foundation is vehemently trying to get people to think twice about having goats and sheep near bighorn.

https://www.wildsheepfoundation.org/cache/DOC48_2018-10-25revisedBHSSmallHerdBrochure.pdf?20181026105034

 

[jlw0142]

Can someone send me where this occurred because I work on bighorn sheep and I can tell you that goats have and will continue to kill sheep through disease spread. Even wild sheep foundation is vehemently trying to get people to think twice about having goats and sheep near bighorn.

https://www.wildsheepfoundation.org/cache/DOC48_2018-10-25revisedBHSSmallHerdBrochure.pdf?20181026105034

Please don’t get combative at me because I’m just telling you what I read, and I’m very new to goats. I was researching to see if there really was an issue of disease transmission, because if so I likely wouldn’t get them. I read about the 2016 Goat Movi study by Dr. Highland, where they penned domestic goats with bighorns for a period of time, and none of the bighorns got sick. But also, how would pack goats pose a threat, when they are always nearby their human and never around bighorns? Maybe if they were to get loose, but that is preventable and that hypothetical ideology could go for almost anything. Do you see affirmative disease transmission by domestic goats on a regular basis?


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[elkhunter505]

Sorry, I don't want to be combative. Apologies it it came off that way. I have a vested interest in keeping bighorn alive and on the mountain. That being said, on average strains of M. ovi from domestic goat clades are less likely to kill bighorn than those from domestic sheep. There are some studies that do talk about sub-lethal or minorly lethal pneumonia being induced by domestic goat exposure (Besser et al. 2017, Johnson et al. 2022); however, there are newer studies that show in similar captive settings that exposure to domestic goat strains of M. ovi do kill sheep (https://www.proquest.com/docview/3149937216?fromopenview=true&pq-origsite=gscholar&sourcetype=Dissertations & Theses). This thesis shows that 3 out of 4 bighorn sheep that were inoculated with goat strains of pneumonia died following inoculation.




The problem is that bighorn that are completely naive to M. ovi are at significant risk of pneumonia from domestic goats, but also there is no cross-strain immunity to M. ovi. Basically, bighorn can increase their immunity to a specific strain, but that immunity does not seem to translate to different strains. In that case, even if the pneumonia from an original goat introduction occurs and is fought off by the animal, a different strain from a different set of goats could but may not kill them given that their lungs have likely already sustained damage. We do see pneumonia infections that have originated from domestic goats relatively frequently but it is less frequent that they're implicated in lethal pneumonia. I know of at least one recent epizootic where a domestic goat was found in the sheep herd about one month prior to the deaths occurring. It is possible it came from somewhere else, but I am waiting to hear about the strain typing results. That goat was sampled and all the dead bighorn were sampled so they should be able to link it if that is the true infection source.

Sorry if my initial message came off combative. That is not how I am trying to go about these things. I don't want to rain on people's parades when goats are likely the most feasible pack animal for many people, but it is something that we all have to think about when we are trying to leave minimal impact on the landscape.

 

[elkhunter505]

Please don’t get combative at me because I’m just telling you what I read, and I’m very new to goats. I was researching to see if there really was an issue of disease transmission, because if so I likely wouldn’t get them. I read about the 2016 Goat Movi study by Dr. Highland, where they penned domestic goats with bighorns for a period of time, and none of the bighorns got sick. But also, how would pack goats pose a threat, when they are always nearby their human and never around bighorns? Maybe if they were to get loose, but that is preventable and that hypothetical ideology could go for almost anything. Do you see affirmative disease transmission by domestic goats on a regular basis?


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In your sense, if the goats are 100% segregated from the bighorn sheep, it is unlikely that it poses a disease risk because it practically requires nose-to-nose contact. However, on the off chance of goats becoming separated from their owners and finding sheep to hang out with, it is a significant concern for our managers. I believe we are all supportive of pack goats in areas where sheep are not present, but in the places were they are, it definitely concerns us.

Edit to add: it's also possible that bighorn see goats and go to them rather than the opposite. Don't want to put it solely on the goat owners.

 

[jlw0142]

Sorry, I don't want to be combative. Apologies it it came off that way. I have a vested interest in keeping bighorn alive and on the mountain. That being said, on average strains of M. ovi from domestic goat clades are less likely to kill bighorn than those from domestic sheep. There are some studies that do talk about sub-lethal or minorly lethal pneumonia being induced by domestic goat exposure (Besser et al. 2017, Johnson et al. 2022); however, there are newer studies that show in similar captive settings that exposure to domestic goat strains of M. ovi do kill sheep (https://www.proquest.com/docview/3149937216?fromopenview=true&pq-origsite=gscholar&sourcetype=Dissertations & Theses). This thesis shows that 3 out of 4 bighorn sheep that were inoculated with goat strains of pneumonia died following inoculation.

View attachment 856637


The problem is that bighorn that are completely naive to M. ovi are at significant risk of pneumonia from domestic goats, but also there is no cross-strain immunity to M. ovi. Basically, bighorn can increase their immunity to a specific strain, but that immunity does not seem to translate to different strains. In that case, even if the pneumonia from an original goat introduction occurs and is fought off by the animal, a different strain from a different set of goats could but may not kill them given that their lungs have likely already sustained damage. We do see pneumonia infections that have originated from domestic goats relatively frequently but it is less frequent that they're implicated in lethal pneumonia. I know of at least one recent epizootic where a domestic goat was found in the sheep herd about one month prior to the deaths occurring. It is possible it came from somewhere else, but I am waiting to hear about the strain typing results. That goat was sampled and all the dead bighorn were sampled so they should be able to link it if that is the true infection source.

Sorry if my initial message came off combative. That is not how I am trying to go about these things. I don't want to rain on people's parades when goats are likely the most feasible pack animal for many people, but it is something that we all have to think about when we are trying to leave minimal impact on the landscape.

Nah man, you’re all good. I didn’t mean that I took your statements as combative, I was just prefacing my statements in disagreement with you because I don’t know what I’m talking about and genuinely wanted your take on the matter, not to start an argument. That is good info, I appreciate it! I understand your perspective, and thankfully I likely won’t ever be hunting in bighorn territory so I should be alright. I live a long way from the elk woods, so goats are by far the most practical for me, but I want sheep conservation as much as the next guy so I will keep em out of sheep habitat. Cheers!


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[elkhunter505]

Nah man, you’re all good. I didn’t mean that I took your statements as combative, I was just prefacing my statements in disagreement with you because I don’t know what I’m talking about and genuinely wanted your take on the matter, not to start an argument. That is good info, I appreciate it! I understand your perspective, and thankfully I likely won’t ever be hunting in bighorn territory so I should be alright. I live a long way from the elk woods, so goats are by far the most practical for me, but I want sheep conservation as much as the next guy so I will keep em out of sheep habitat. Cheers!


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Awesome, that’s all we can hope for! Them little goats are cooler than hell but I just spend too much time around sheep to have them myself. Hope they work out for ya!