Advice on reloading die selection

[Jesse Jaymes]

I am not simply asking inane questions to request Sam and Broz type. But I am trying to reach that Next Level in accuracy. Too many jackwagons on Sniper's Hide.

I've been reloading since I could pull the handle at 10 years old. So that's 32 years. I simply used whatever Dad had, which was RCBS. Growing up on the East Coast everything was "Pie Plate" accuracy. Wasn't hard to make the old '06 hit the plate the night before the season opened. Laughable now.

I have a pile of RCBS standard $29 dies. I've done well with some. I advanced to Redding because they had snazzier ads and what I thought were better tolerances. A handful of Hornady mostly because 375 Ruger and 338 RCM are readily available by them. I currently try to buy the Forster Benchrest dies(their standard) with the comp seaters. They are hard to obtain in the appropriate calibers, even direct from the Co. I've had some wildcats like a 257 STW and 6.5WSM (before the 270 or 7 were introduced). But that doesn't mean I knew how to do more than weigh charges and seat bullets. I've turned necks and have a mandrel stem for 6.5.....but I really don't have a clue(maybe 1 clue) what I'm doing.

When I asked last week about lower ES and it got into a neck turning discussion, it prompted me to ask this question:

What is the best route to choose in purchasing a die set (non Wildcat)? Maybe not best, but there is a ton of talk of neck bushing, bumps, etc. I'm a bit lost entering this theory. Can anyone line me out without typing a novel? I can measure headspace. I can bump a shoulder .0015". I can measure my bullet to lands OAL and translate that into bullet to ogive(or very close) and work off that. But diving into a new set of neck bushing dies and understanding neck tension....I don't have grasped yet. I can do loaded round overall neck cross section, minus bullet diameter and divide by 2 to get each wall thickness. But what do I do with it, or what does it tell me?

One epiphany is my buddy, the Giant. Guy never reloaded a round in his life. Never even had a bolt action centerfire. He buys a Savage LRH in 7Mag. No kids, no ex-wives. Dumps $2500 into equipment. I called him an idiot.

A year and a half later, I am the one with egg on the face. He read every article on BRShooters, etc. He did Ladders and nodes and every case measurement possible. He's tossed more Lapua cases than I've ever bought. He still can't dump a 2 liter bottle in one shot at 500 yards. But I know his rifle and ammo are able. I just need to be the one running it. I borrow his Run Out gauge (Hornady). Really opened my eyes to loading and ammo production quality. I think I need one.

So now I am struggling with a box stock Remington 243 SPS (LH). I got sucked into trying Hornady "Custom" grade dies due to the seating collet. My ammo is still not stellar. Run out averages .005". If I have access to his gauge I sort my 1s and 2s and burn up the 5s and 6s on whatever.

Can I invest in a set of Redding neck bushing dies and potentially improve my run-out? If so, what do I look for in taking that "next step" in die selection to improve my ammo concentricity?

 

[gelton]

I was in your shoes a couple of months ago and made the switch, so I will take a stab at explaining why the bushing die is more beneficial. Since different manufacturers use different neck tensions, the neck size is different based on the type of brass that you are using. So if you want a bushing die to be useful you will need to separate your brass because different brass may need to be loaded with different bushings.

Non bushing dies use a one size fits all approach which can overwork brass and cause accuracy issues. All you have to do to determine which bushing to use is to measure a loaded rounds neck diameter and subtract .001 and from Reddings chart you can decide which one to choose. I purchased two bushings for my .300 win mag - One of them was .002 smaller and another was .001 and the .001 was definitely the one.

I use nothing but Nosler brass through my .300 win mag but if I were ever to change I would need to remeasure and may need a different bushing.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

How about neck mandrels?

Is it kosher to run no expander ball? Simply de-prime with a small diameter pin and size neck with a bushing?

 

[Sam Millard]

How about neck mandrels?

Is it kosher to run no expander ball? Simply de-prime with a small diameter pin and size neck with a bushing?

Yes, that is what I do. The only reason you would need the expander or an oversize mandrel is if you ding the case mouth, like during extraction or a drop to a hard surface.

 

[fire arrow]

I'm using no expander ball and using a Sinclair expander mandrel. I tried using the expander ball and then the mandrel. Once I started using the mandrel my bullet runout dropped to .002-.004. Don't get me wrong there are some .008-.010. These guys are my foulers.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

I used the wrong term but you all got past it. I meant expander "ball" or tapered expander.

 

[Cahunter805]

Redding competition dies are what I use and am very happy with them.

 

[mtswampfox]

when want the best for accuracy the wilson die/arbor press system is hard to beat. when you get the sizer die you send it back to wilson with a couple of empty cases fired in your gun and they polish out the die to fit your chamber. bought mine at sinclair international. amazing how fast this system is too after a little practice.for day to day shooting/hunting rounds am a redding fan for standard and wildcat loads.

 

[AZ Vince]

I'll just add this little bit too the thread.
In help with eliminating bullet runout I'd partial seat the bullet then turn the case 3/4 of a turn, and seat another 1/3, to turn it a third time and seat again. In short, three cranks of the handle to seat one bullet.
Another tip, eliminate the turning by using a Forster Coax press. I'm having a lot less runout with the Forster compared to a more traditional single stage.

 

[AZ Vince]

3/4 should read 1/3.
Darn smartphone.

 

[Broz]

I have used many type dies over the years. Since I started using Redding competition die sets I have looked no further. I will try to keep it brief and explain why.

The Redding competition neck and seating dies have a retractable sleeve that captures the case and holds it true to the die while any work is being done. Plus one for true brass. We know that fired brass come out of our rifles formed to that rifles exact chamber size. We know that we need to retain a tolerance to size it back just a touch to allow a little head space and room for expansion above the web. This allows for a few things. Easy and consistent bolt closure, room for the brass to expand a little yet extract smoothly, no excessive, or in consistent head space pressure resulting in poor ES. Now if the fired brass comes out of the chamber perfectly mirrored to our chamber we only wish to size it back just enough to control the growth yet keep it as close to that chamber size as possible in a controlled sizing method. The more work we do the that fired brass the more chance there is to induce run out. I prefer to do my sizing back to spec in two steps. One the necks. I choose to only size down the necks what is needed to give solid bullet hold for hunting rounds and only what I need to do to keep the tension consistent. That for my rifles is usually .002" to .0025" under the size of the neck of the loaded round. By only sizing necks back what is needed opposed to over sizing it down and pulling an expander ball back through it my necks remain straighter. And remember, this minor work to the neck is done while the brass is captured in that sleeve and held true to the die.

Next step is the body die. This dies never touches the neck. I set it up to cam over against the shell holder. This makes sure each time I size a case I wil be extending that case the same exact amount into the die. If not set to cam over (touch the shell holder) a case that needs more sizing and goes in with increased pressure can result in less work done. So by making sure with each case there is zero clearance between the die and shell holder then I know each case is sized the same. Now to control the amount of shoulder set back I will use a set of Redding competition shell holder that are stepped in .002" increments. This allows me to adjust the "shoulder Bump" back to .002" from zero head space each and every time. I use the same number shell holder, set the die up to cam over, and all the sized brass is the same spec each time loaded. If a case has only grown .001 it only gets set back .001 to get back to the desired .002 head space. If the brass has not grown and needs no shoulder set back it gets nothing to the shoulder but may get a little sizing above the web. This method works well for me and I know my loaded rounds are only sized back to a minimum each time and the result is consistent brass fitted to my rifles chamber and it will always be the same each loading.

Seating. The Redding comp. seating die also has the retractable sleeve to keep the brass true to the die. I dip each case neck a few times in Imperial dry case lube to give smooth consistent seating. Since I only size the necks back .002 to .0025 the bullets go in easy. Again applying less stress to the neck and shoulder of the case resulting in allowing the true to rifle chamber brass to retain its trueness.

My precision long range ammo average .0005" to .001" of total indicated runout (TIR) when measured at the bullet o-give. However I have seen little accuracy difference from rounds averaging .0005" to .001" when compared to rounds with no more than .003" TIR at 1000 yards into paper targets. But the needed proper case fit to my specific rifles chamber is preserved and repeated and I feel I have not over worked my brass adding to stress hardening of the necks and shoulders.

It should also be noted I anneal brass every firing or two to keep the brass at the same hardness all the time.

Tried to keep it brief, but brass prep and die use is a huge part of precision loading and gets involved.

Hope this helps someone.

Jeff

 

[HellsCanyon]

I have used many type dies over the years. Since I started using Redding competition die sets I have looked no further. I will try to keep it brief and explain why.

The Redding competition neck and seating dies have a retractable sleeve that captures the case and holds it true to the die while any work is being done. Plus one for true brass. We know that fired brass come out of our rifles formed to that rifles exact chamber size. We know that we need to retain a tolerance to size it back just a touch to allow a little head space and room for expansion above the web. This allows for a few things. Easy and consistent bolt closure, room for the brass to expand a little yet extract smoothly, no excessive, or in consistent head space pressure resulting in poor ES. Now if the fired brass comes out of the chamber perfectly mirrored to our chamber we only wish to size it back just enough to control the growth yet keep it as close to that chamber size as possible in a controlled sizing method. The more work we do the that fired brass the more chance there is to induce run out. I prefer to do my sizing back to spec in two steps. One the necks. I choose to only size down the necks what is needed to give solid bullet hold for hunting rounds and only what I need to do to keep the tension consistent. That for my rifles is usually .002" to .0025" under the size of the neck of the loaded round. By only sizing necks back what is needed opposed to over sizing it down and pulling an expander ball back through it my necks remain straighter. And remember, this minor work to the neck is done while the brass is captured in that sleeve and held true to the die.

Next step is the body die. This dies never touches the neck. I set it up to cam over against the shell holder. This makes sure each time I size a case I wil be extending that case the same exact amount into the die. If not set to cam over (touch the shell holder) a case that needs more sizing and goes in with increased pressure can result in less work done. So by making sure with each case there is zero clearance between the die and shell holder then I know each case is sized the same. Now to control the amount of shoulder set back I will use a set of Redding competition shell holder that are stepped in .002" increments. This allows me to adjust the "shoulder Bump" back to .002" from zero head space each and every time. I use the same number shell holder, set the die up to cam over, and all the sized brass is the same spec each time loaded. If a case has only grown .001 it only gets set back .001 to get back to the desired .002 head space. If the brass has not grown and needs no shoulder set back it gets nothing to the shoulder but may get a little sizing above the web. This method works well for me and I know my loaded rounds are only sized back to a minimum each time and the result is consistent brass fitted to my rifles chamber and it will always be the same each loading.

Seating. The Redding comp. seating die also has the retractable sleeve to keep the brass true to the die. I dip each case neck a few times in Imperial dry case lube to give smooth consistent seating. Since I only size the necks back .002 to .0025 the bullets go in easy. Again applying less stress to the neck and shoulder of the case resulting in allowing the true to rifle chamber brass to retain its trueness.

My precision long range ammo average .0005" to .001" of total indicated runout (TIR) when measured at the bullet o-give. However I have seen little accuracy difference from rounds averaging .0005" to .001" when compared to rounds with no more than .003" TIR at 1000 yards into paper targets. But the needed proper case fit to my specific rifles chamber is preserved and repeated and I feel I have not over worked my brass adding to stress hardening of the necks and shoulders.

It should also be noted I anneal brass every firing or two to keep the brass at the same hardness all the time.

Tried to keep it brief, but brass prep and die use is a huge part of precision loading and gets involved.

Hope this helps someone.

Jeff

Can't tell you how much I wish customers of custom rifles handled reloading like this.... Nice post Broz.

Mike

 

[Clarktar]

Broz, I need to come reload with you, and bring my pencil and paper for notes !!

 

[Broz]

Thank you for the kind words guys. I was worried it was not explained so others could understand. Sometimes explanations get so involved the methods are lost in details.

Jeff

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

Many thanks to all.

I have used the seat in 3 steps rotating the case for a while. Still not impressed, but it don't think it hurts.

The Giant in my initial post has a Co-Ax press. When I load on his equipment I get great ammo. Minimal run-out. I need a Co-Ax press.

Since Broz took the time to type it all, I will re-read it several times. As I initially posted, the Redding options do make my head spin. Body dies, bump dies, small base dies, etc. I will get it sorted out.

I am currently wanting to love the .243. It's a box stock Remington. Was hoping for a budget mid LR gun. But the 1- 9 1/8" twist isn't too easy to sort out on the 105s. I can't find any H1000 to dup a nice load I built prior. So I'm working with the 95 Bergers that are less fickle. I would like to invest in better dies for this chambering. I'll get with Redding and have them line me out. I can see more than a few little things that I can tweak.

On brass, I'd guess it's best to swing for the fence, invest in quality brass for best results. Is it really pissing up a rope to buy 100pc of Winchester brass for the 243 and prep and sort it? Meaning do I HAVE to try and find Lapua cases and build the dies around one series of brass to even begin?

I did a bit of reading on annealing the last few days. My 243 brass is REALLY hard in the necks. Even lubed inside and out. Seems there is a ton of science to annealing and the guys who simply heat with a torch and tip over in the pan are pretty archaic. And of course the benchrest annealing jigs/wheels are $325 without burners, etc.

A cheaper, but proven method?

 

[Broz]

It all depends on the degree of shooting and accuracy you want to obtain and if and when you progress to the point you see small improvements.

Remember, if you want a rifle to shoot into the same hole all the time, then all things need to be the same. This includes each prepared piece of brass, each bullet, each powder charge and also each time the shooter pulls the trigger. Always all the same.

I choose an annealing machine for speed, convenience and last but not least consistency case to case. For all these I choose the Bench Source annealer.

I use the Redding T7 turret press. Once my dies are set they stay set and I don't remove them. The next step to the next die is a simple rotate on one station and the die is there set and ready to go. I have 2 T-7 presses and 4 heads.

As you can see good brass prepped properly is huge in regards to accuracy and consistency. Once I get my brass set to my rifle all prepped I want it to last. For this reason and for the consistency case to case I often choose my calibers dependent on if quality brass is available. Meaning I look for Lapua brass availability first.

I don't know what you mean by " build a set of dies around one set of brass" Dies are set to external dimension of the brass in relation to your rifles chamber. That is all except the neck tension part of the bushing die to the bullet. So changing to different brass will not be a hard job once you understand the process of what you are trying to achieve.

WW brass once prepped would surely serve you well for your rifle now. Again in the future you may get to the point where the gains of better brass would be noticeable. But those gains , on targets will not be huge, but will become more noticeable as distance increases.

Jeff

 

[HellsCanyon]

One thing I'll mention here, I think Jeff will agree with me, but we'll see...

Reloading to the precision that Jeff is doing is hardly required for hunting rifles and won't apply to 99% of the guys on here. Consistent powder charges at a good consistent velocity range, finding your chambers preferred bullet seating depth measured from Ogive and proper annealing of brass will gain you 90%-95% of your rifles accuracy. if you're shooting 800 yards and under, I would doubt you'd notice much difference. The difference between .5 MOA and .25 MOA is still only 2.5" at 1000 yards. While we all need to shoot and aim for perfection, and do what we can to eliminate all variables within our control, don't think you HAVE to have that bench rest mentality for shooting long range.

If you're going to break into the ELR game of 1000+ yards then you really need to get a good handle on your knowledge of all the aspects and science of your system.

Mike

 

[Matt Cashell]

Hope this helps someone.

Jeff

It helped me.

Thanks Jeff!

 

[Broz]

Yes I agree Mike. I teach and adhere to the thought that long rang accuracy is obtained by a combination of 3 things as a team. Rifle accuracy, ammo accuracy and shooter skill. A 1 moa rifle will shoot close to 10" at 1000 yards and inside the 1 moa is the vital zone of many large game animals. This 1 moa rifle ammo and shooter combo is capable of taking game at 1000, but is a better combination at 700 yards or less. If one wants to take game regularly at longer distances they should search out what is needed to extend that distance by tightening the combo / team to closer to 1/2 moa. The farther out you go, the need for precision increases , whether it is obtained in the rifle, ammo, shooter, any one of the three, or all 3.

Jeff

 

[ol490]

This thread has been great to read and very informational. Thanks to those contributing.