280AI handload question

agardner00

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I am new to both handloading and elk hunting. I’m running a 150g Nosler E-Tip at ~2950 fps, which has done an amazing job on whitetails the past two years (no chance to try it on elk yet). The damage done this year had me thinking maybe the load was a bit much for whitetails, so I started researching a 140g load. I was surprised to find that the ballistic data for the 140 (all else being the same) actually looked way better for elk: more velocity for much longer, allowing better bullet performance; flatter shooting; and across the board higher or equal energy at impact.

Here’s my question: why do I keep reading that I need a 168g-175g projectile for elk? When I run those numbers I get even less performance, unless I start running the fps beyond what my cartridge is capable of. (Not to mention that my barrel is 1:9, which looks like not the best for those heavy bullets.) What am I missing here?


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Extrapale

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What kind of performance are you looking for?

What kind of damage are you seeing?

Generally speaking sturdy, heavy for caliber, bullets at lower velocity cause less bloodshot and penetrate well.

There is no free lunch or magic bullet.

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agardner00

agardner00

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What kind of performance are you looking for?

What kind of damage are you seeing?

Generally speaking sturdy, heavy for caliber, bullets at lower velocity cause less bloodshot and penetrate well.

There is no free lunch or magic bullet.

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I totally get that there’s no free lunch, but I don’t see the evidence for better penetration in this case—I get that as a general rule, but I’ve had complete pass-throughs (yet to recover a bullet) and very fast kills with the all-copper bullets.

I guess to re-state my question; if I’m totally confident in the bullet’s terminal performance, and can actually increase it since the Etips mushroom more at higher velocity, and I also get an across the board bump in all other performance, why wouldn’t I? Seems pretty simple, but given the prevalence of advice to use 169-175s (as well as my handloading inexperience) I just wondered if there was something I’m not taking into account.


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agardner00

agardner00

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What kind of performance are you looking for?

What kind of damage are you seeing?

Generally speaking sturdy, heavy for caliber, bullets at lower velocity cause less bloodshot and penetrate well.

There is no free lunch or magic bullet.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk

Also, to your first question, I’m not really looking for a particular performance level—my setup should have no problem killing anything I want to shoot inside 600 yards, and the longest shot I’ve ever taken was 350. Just got to thinking about best performance, specifically for elk, with my rifle.


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Typically heavy for caliber bullets leave the muzzle with as much or more energy than lighter bullets. Primary generalized benefits of heavier for caliber bullets:
- Higher BC than lighter bullets, lose velocity and energy at a slower rate and have less wind drift
- Higher Sectional density - helps penetration especially in a lighter constructed lead core bullets
- Move at slower velocities that make it less likely the bullet will come apart too quickly on impact

With solid copper bullets the primary benefit of heavier bullets is a higher BC because they penetrate well even with lighter bullets. As more shooters get experience and education at longer ranges with the tools available today, they realize drop is easy to account for compared to wind drift. It used to be people looked for the fastest and flattest option but now wind drift has become a primary consideration.

Your 150 load should be fine for elk and your 9 twist would also be fine for 168-175 lead core bullets but maybe not monos which will be longer for their weight.
 

nphunter

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I’m shooting 168gr VLD’s and have had great luck with killing 3 elk and 3 deer in the last few years. Does quite a bit of damage to deer at close range. My son shot his buck at 20 yards with it last year.
2940fps, 63gr Retumbo, 25” barrel.
I’ve killed more elk with a 243 and my Hoyt than with my AI and all worked great. Shoot what your confident with. Your setup is not leaving anything on the table for killing animals. Typically heavier bullets have higher BC and are better for LR shooting. I built mine as a 1000 yard rifle and it shoots well at that distance when I do my part.

E-Tip 150 .498 BC
VLD 168 .617 BC

Comparing those two bullets and our two loads you start giving up Trajectory and Energy pretty extensively starting at 500 yards. At 1000 your significantly worse with the e-tip. Your dropping 30” more and have 300lbs less energy.

hope that helps, for hunting at 500 yards and less probably doesn’t mean jack. Out of all the deer and elk I’ve killed with my AI the furthest was 130 yards. It’s nice to know it’s there if I need it though.

E-Tip 500
141877E-Tip 1000
141876

VLD 500
141878

VLD 1000
141879
 

hipshotgunslinger

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Look at it this way....I shoot all copper bullets exclusively, mostly Barnes tsx/ttsx/lrx. I can shoot an elk with a 150gr 7mm bullet 280AI or 7mm mag and it still weigh about 145gr and not contaminate my meat with lead.

My father in law swears by Accubonds. He shot a cow elk with a 30-06 & 200gr Accubond. Recovered it weighed 143gr after shedding its lead core in it.

My load in the 280AI is over 400fps faster than his 30-06 load. It's going to take a long time to catch up to the 280AI load and we both end up with basically the same weight projectile in the end.

Im all about heavy for caliber in my 45-70, but I like light for caliber, high velocity copper bullets for the smaller calibers. To each their own. I've killed several elk with the 30cal 165 & 168 Barnes.

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Jardo

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The 168-175 gn projectiles are imho for long rage hunting. If your dialing and shooting sheep and deer at 800 yards, you will want the higher ballistic coefficient of the longer heavier bullets.

Inside 500 yards, shoot whatever your gun likes. If you’re planning to hunt sheep or speed goats at 800 yards, a Berger vld is what you want.

I have a 280 ai and for elk I don’t shoot past 400 yards so I hunt with a 160 grain accubond. I feel like it doesn’t have enough energy to reliably kill a mature bull past 400 yards. My 300 win is perfect for long shots on elk. For deer, sheep and antelope, I’ll shoot out to 900 with a 168 vld in my 280 ai.

It’s my all time favorite caliber.


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Exactly! If that 150 gr. E-tip shoots well in your 280 AI USE IT! It's a fantastic bullet that will work superbly for you on elk or just about anything in North America! I have been shooting either 140 gr. Partitions or Accubonds in my 280 AI and they have worked very well. My first animal taken with the Partition was a large cow elk with one shot at 450 yards. She staggered maybe 20 yards and dropped.

Just this fall using a 140 gr. Accubond I shot a really nice grizzly bear in Alaska at 158 yards. One shot! He spun into the shot right through the lungs behind the shoulder, did two tight somersaults and was dead. He never moved at all. The bullet exited the off-side of his ribs. Excellent performance I would think.

My son shot his first elk which was a very nice large cow at 350 yards with one shot. He was using 90 gr. E-tips in his 6mm Remington. He hit his cow tight behind her right shoulder and the bullet angled slightly forward and exited the center of her left shoulder. She went about 20 yards and fell down. I've shot the Accubonds, Partitions, and E-tips in quite a few animals and they all work very well. I also have shot them into gallon water jugs at distances from 25-100-200-300-400-500 yards and they all held together and penetrated nicely.

Go hunt elk and anything else with your load with confidence. It's a winner!

David
 

Marble

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The bullet I will choose for my 280AI will be the Nosler AB 160. Seems to be a very good bullet in a lot of ways. It should come out around 3000 FPS with handloads.

I will have no hesitation shooting that cartridge to around 600 yards.

My 280 is made by Kimber. Their recommendation was to shoot and keep five pieces of brass and give them to my chosen die manufacture and have dies made.
 
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agardner00

agardner00

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The bullet I will choose for my 280AI will be the Nosler AB 160. Seems to be a very good bullet in a lot of ways. It should come out around 3000 FPS with handloads.

I will have no hesitation shooting that cartridge to around 600 yards.

My 280 is made by Kimber. Their recommendation was to shoot and keep five pieces of brass and give them to my chosen die manufacture and have dies made.

Mine’s also a Kimber. Interesting; I guess I didn’t know you could have dies made from brass. I was shooting an ABLR 160 at about 2850 without really working up the load. Just decided to go all copper last year.


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Marble

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This is my second AI gun, the first is a 7-08. I had to do the same thing for that gun. I sent them off to RCBS and $140 later the dies arrived. I live in CA and have to shoot copper here. But everywhere else I shoot the Nosler ABs.

I haven't chosen a powder yet, already have brass. But I would imagine the 160 should end up coming out around 3000 give or take.

I'm not a big fan of the copper, although we've killed plenty with it here and it shoots well in the few guns I shoot it in. And I've been involved first hand with some of the propaganda from the anti lead people. It's amazing the kind of stuff that is claimed by the anti hunter /lead free people.
 

ChrisAU

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The factory loaded Nosler 160 ABs average around 3,030 out of my Cooper M92 280 AI. 26" barrel + muzzle brake. Surprised me given Nosler claims 2950, but I have shot a few dozen rounds through my chrono and verified the drops with that MV.
 
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The factory loaded Nosler 160 ABs average around 3,030 out of my Cooper M92 280 AI. 26" barrel + muzzle brake. Surprised me given Nosler claims 2950, but I have shot a few dozen rounds through my chrono and verified the drops with that MV.

How well do those factory rounds group out of that Cooper?
 
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Thanks for all the ideas. What I’m gathering is quit worrying about the BS and go shoot an elk!


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That's definitely the message you should be getting. The vast majority of bullet discussions is mostly just camp fire theorists debating because it's not hunting season. If the load is accurate you really don't NEED to play with anything else. I'd maybe play with the 140's and see if there's a load around 3,100 fps that shoots accurately for a higher impact velocity at your 600 yard limit. If you don't pick up an extra 100-150 fps with the smaller bullet you're just losing performance at that range. I've not played much in the all copper game as I don't feel the need for them when they don't expand as well as bonded bullets (if you feel more comfortable with them, more power to you) but I've used 140gr Accubonds in my 280ai on 6 different elk out to 400 yards and I can definitely say that a heavier bullet isn't required at the ranges I'm comfortable shooting elk at.
 
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Not much effort required for a 3 shot group to have all 3 touching at 100. It likes the Accubonds better than the Partitions in that regard, though they were also under 1 MOA.

I would like to upgrade to a Cooper but for now I’m just going to try reloading for my Kimber to see what it can do. I get MOA or just a hair less with the factory 140 and 160 ABs. The partitions didn’t shoot well in my Kimber.
 
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