1500ftlbs accubond vs ???ftlbs barnes or other mono bullets needed to kill elk

[steffen707]

I'm curious for the people that believe the whole 1000ftlbs for deer and 1500ftlbs for elk rule of thumb...... If you don't believe in this type of BS, then please don't clog up the thread. I know there are people on both sides of this camp.

what is the necessary ftlbs for monolithic bullets like the barnes LRX to kill deer or elk?

Monos have shown they retain their weight better than other bullet construction, but need a velocity on impact of about 2000fps or more to expand properly.

So what i'm trying to figure out is, if my cartridge has enough oomph to keep a lower weight mono bullet above 2000ft/s, is there a ftlbs of energy component as well to be aware of?

Example. 7RM 168gr ABLR at a muzzle velocity of about 2846 should have 1500ftlbs of energy left at 600yards.
Does a 7RM shooting a Barnes 139gr LRX at 3000 muzzle velocity with 2000fps remaining at 530 yards, still have elk killing power with only 1236ftlbs? Consider apples to apples, both bullets land in the bread basket, (I know I know, a 22 can kill an elk at 530 yards if placed properly)

 

[Vandy321]

The only answer of relevance here is "it depends".

Would I shoot 139s from my 7RM at elk at 500-600 yards...you bet, if I could find them in stock.

 

[ndbuck09]

why would you shoot that light of a bullet at elk? Plenty of people kill elk with the 140 gr bullet weight but they just keep the range reasonable. Why push it? If you hit an elk shoulder with the light bullet at that distance, i'd bet it'll deflect pretty good and odds are it'll be a fiasco finding the elk.

I get that you prob have a load that is super accurate so just keep the range reasonable and don't push it would be my vote. Getting closer is most always an option. Cutting off 200 yards from 500 to 300 is pretty easy on an elk stalk.

 

[steffen707]

why would you shoot that light of a bullet at elk? Plenty of people kill elk with the 140 gr bullet weight but they just keep the range reasonable. Why push it? If you hit an elk shoulder with the light bullet at that distance, i'd bet it'll deflect pretty good and odds are it'll be a fiasco finding the elk.

I get that you prob have a load that is super accurate so just keep the range reasonable and don't push it would be my vote. Getting closer is most always an option. Cutting off 200 yards from 500 to 300 is pretty easy on an elk stalk.

You must not know about monolithic bullets. Lots of people drop down in bullet weight when going mono because they retain more mass than cup/core.

 

[steffen707]

why would you shoot that light of a bullet at elk? Plenty of people kill elk with the 140 gr bullet weight but they just keep the range reasonable. Why push it? If you hit an elk shoulder with the light bullet at that distance, i'd bet it'll deflect pretty good and odds are it'll be a fiasco finding the elk.

I get that you prob have a load that is super accurate so just keep the range reasonable and don't push it would be my vote. Getting closer is most always an option. Cutting off 200 yards from 500 to 300 is pretty easy on an elk stalk.

Also I'm planning out the extreme edge of my gun's capability. Would I like to take a 600yard shot? No, But I definitely can't take that shot if the terminal performance of my system doesn't allow for it.

 

[Anschutz]

Also I'm planning out the extreme edge of my gun's capability. Would I like to take a 600yard shot? No, But I definitely can't take that shot if the terminal performance of my system doesn't allow for it.

Before talking about bullet performance at ranges like that, you first need to ask yourself if you can accurately place a shot at that distance. I would personally use the heavier bullet. I don't necessarily subscribe to a minimum energy requirement but the lighter bullet will have less KE, less momentum, and a higher wind drift than the heavier bullet at 600 yards.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

I like to keep impact velocity of Barnes > 2400 fps.
If you're interested Ballisticstudies.com has great info on Barnes. It will answer your question.

 

[Highvoltage1]

If you talk to any bullet manufacturing company the only number they will give you is the minimum velocity for their projectile to work properly. To my knowledge there is no energy factor to kill big game. With that being said a 215 fired from a rum vs a 110 fired from a 25-06 will both get the job done but the energy dump will obviously be greater on the heavier bullet and could result in a more dramatic kill. Figure out your set ups velocity, run the numbers for range, and see if you can shoot softball size groups at that distance in all field conditions. Best wishes!

 

[Wrench]

Im the guy you talked about in bold based on seeing north of 100 elk die....but that's not the point.

The point is velocity is the variable you need to pay attention to, especially in a 7mm. If you can keep the bullet above the upset velocity window... it will do it's job and the rest is up to you.

If you choose a mono, drive it faster than the minimum expansion speed by a safe distance and any elk that walks off is your fault, not the bullet.

 

[Indian Summer]

(I know I know, a 22 can kill an elk at 530 yards if placed properly)

Maybe. Maybe not. Well ok, if placed properly. But at over 500 yards there’s a good chance the bullet will barely have penetrated the hide. Anything will die eventually if you poke holes in it’s lungs. But when hunting larger animals in big tough country you should ask yourself if you’ll find it once it’s dead. That means quickly enough to salvage the meat too. With a .22 the answer is probably not. At 533 yards you’ll need to also ask how many guys can actually put it in the boiler room every time too. So what happens when you pair a lightweight bullet with less than proper placement?

I don’t care if you’re killing elk or wiping your butt having the right tool for the job is important. Have you ever tried wiping with light caliber toilet paper? Lol

 

[35WhelenAI]

Best way to drive a mono fast enough is to drop down in weight and enjoy, as has been said.

 

[Marble]

I'm curious for the people that believe the whole 1000ftlbs for deer and 1500ftlbs for elk rule of thumb...... If you don't believe in this type of BS, then please don't clog up the thread. I know there are people on both sides of this camp.

what is the necessary ftlbs for monolithic bullets like the barnes LRX to kill deer or elk?

Monos have shown they retain their weight better than other bullet construction, but need a velocity on impact of about 2000fps or more to expand properly.

So what i'm trying to figure out is, if my cartridge has enough oomph to keep a lower weight mono bullet above 2000ft/s, is there a ftlbs of energy component as well to be aware of?

Example. 7RM 168gr ABLR at a muzzle velocity of about 2846 should have 1500ftlbs of energy left at 600yards.
Does a 7RM shooting a Barnes 139gr LRX at 3000 muzzle velocity with 2000fps remaining at 530 yards, still have elk killing power with only 1236ftlbs? Consider apples to apples, both bullets land in the bread basket, (I know I know, a 22 can kill an elk at 530 yards if placed properly)

I do like having a bullet making that much and probably more energy for elk. I'm not a fan of lighter bullets, or, for the most part and within reason, I like heavier bullets that hit hard for elk coming from magnum type cartridges.

For deer, it doesn't seem to make that big of a difference. I haven't had, or witnessed issues with, any standard deer caliber and normal weight for class bullets killing deer. They are much smaller and don't seem to take lead like an elk can.



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[Marble]

why would you shoot that light of a bullet at elk? Plenty of people kill elk with the 140 gr bullet weight but they just keep the range reasonable. Why push it? If you hit an elk shoulder with the light bullet at that distance, i'd bet it'll deflect pretty good and odds are it'll be a fiasco finding the elk.

I get that you prob have a load that is super accurate so just keep the range reasonable and don't push it would be my vote. Getting closer is most always an option. Cutting off 200 yards from 500 to 300 is pretty easy on an elk stalk.

You are correct and I'll add the following...

I shot a bull with a 180 grain nosler AB @3200 fps at 410 yards. The bullet broke a rib going in, hit a rib prior to exit, made a 90 degree turn, went about 11 to 15 towards the back of the animal inside th ribs, went through another rib and lodged in the skin.

Point being, even a larger bullet can get deflected when it hits shit. I've hit elk at distance and had the bullet deflect sharply off the shoulder. Just depends. Sometimes it's punched through like a champ.

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[35WhelenAI]

You are correct and I'll add the following...

I shot a bull with a 180 grain nosler AB @3200 fps at 410 yards. The bullet broke a rib going in, hit a rib prior to exit, made a 90 degree turn, went about 11 to 15 towards the back of the animal inside th ribs, went through another rib and lodged in the skin.

Point being, even a larger bullet can get deflected when it hits shit. I've hit elk at distance and had the bullet deflect sharply off the shoulder. Just depends. Sometimes it's punched through like a champ.

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Keep that bullet away from the good stuff in camp the night before it has to go to work...

 

[Indian Summer]

You are correct and I'll add the following...

I shot a bull with a 180 grain nosler AB @3200 fps at 410 yards. The bullet broke a rib going in, hit a rib prior to exit, made a 90 degree turn, went about 11 to 15 towards the back of the animal inside th ribs, went through another rib and lodged in the skin.

Point being, even a larger bullet can get deflected when it hits shit. I've hit elk at distance and had the bullet deflect sharply off the shoulder. Just depends. Sometimes it's punched through like a champ.

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EXACTLY! You just proved a point. Not only can we not put the words “perfect placement” in questions like yours but there’s definitely no way to predict the path or breakdown of a bullet once it hits an animal.

So…. Instead of using a short stubby wrench to break a seized nut loose get one with a nice long handle that will be more guaranteed to get the job done.

I always say this on these type of threads…. Until you lose an entire elk that you know is lying dead somewhere you’ll never comprehend why guys hope for the best but plan for the worst when choosing guns and bullets. Finding them 2 days later doesn’t help either.

 

[PorterNY]

Well, I am a lefty and rifles that fit me are a little hard to come by. I shoot a .270 win with 150 grain ABLR bullets. I have shot 5 whitetail, 1 Colorado bull elk, 1 Newfoundland bull moose with these ABLR bullets. On both the bigger animals I shot twice… in both cases 1 bullet passed through and one was lodged in the hide on the far side …. As far as the whitetail goes.. my exit holes have been a touch smaller than my fist.

 

[Marble]

EXACTLY! You just proved a point. Not only can we not put the words “perfect placement” in questions like yours but there’s definitely no way to predict the path or breakdown of a bullet once it hits an animal.

So…. Instead of using a short stubby wrench to break a seized nut loose get one with a nice long handle that will be more guaranteed to get the job done.

I always say this on these type of threads…. Until you lose an entire elk that you know is lying dead somewhere you’ll never comprehend why guys hope for the best but plan for the worst when choosing guns and bullets. Finding them 2 days later doesn’t help either. View attachment 358211

Thanks.

I have seen so many threads discussing the minutiae of balistics, bullet choice, caliber etc etc. Its not irrelevant to discuss but, it is way down the list IMO.

It reminds me of archery where guys are wanting 20% FOC but can't hit a stop sign at 30 yards consistently.

I'm not trying to bash on the OP.



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[freddyG]

If you are planning on running a 139 Lrx starting at 3k fps, you are going to have problems over around 450 yards. With a less than perfect shot, it won’t open enough to consistently bring down elk. I have tried the 145 Lrx around this velocity, and if it weren’t for snowy conditions, the elk would have been very difficult to find.

 

[rootacres]

Im the guy you talked about in bold based on seeing north of 100 elk die....but that's not the point.

The point is velocity is the variable you need to pay attention to, especially in a 7mm. If you can keep the bullet above the upset velocity window... it will do it's job and the rest is up to you.

If you choose a mono, drive it faster than the minimum expansion speed by a safe distance and any elk that walks off is your fault, not the bullet.

^^^ pretty much what he said.

If you keep your impact velocity where it needs to be for proper expansion of the projectile you choose then the KE will likely be where you need it to be. Obviously with reasonable bullet selections for elk you'll be fine.

I probably wouldn't selected a lighter weight cup & core designed bullet like Bergers or ELDX for elk. The Bergers and ELDX north of 160grs would do just fine IMO. And any mono around 140grs and up would also be fine keeping impact velocities in mind. Personally I think a bonded bullet like an accubond is a great compromise of bullet construction, weight, and BC.

 

[Marble]

I'm curious for the people that believe the whole 1000ftlbs for deer and 1500ftlbs for elk rule of thumb...... If you don't believe in this type of BS, then please don't clog up the thread. I know there are people on both sides of this camp.

what is the necessary ftlbs for monolithic bullets like the barnes LRX to kill deer or elk?

Monos have shown they retain their weight better than other bullet construction, but need a velocity on impact of about 2000fps or more to expand properly.

So what i'm trying to figure out is, if my cartridge has enough oomph to keep a lower weight mono bullet above 2000ft/s, is there a ftlbs of energy component as well to be aware of?

Example. 7RM 168gr ABLR at a muzzle velocity of about 2846 should have 1500ftlbs of energy left at 600yards.
Does a 7RM shooting a Barnes 139gr LRX at 3000 muzzle velocity with 2000fps remaining at 530 yards, still have elk killing power with only 1236ftlbs? Consider apples to apples, both bullets land in the bread basket, (I know I know, a 22 can kill an elk at 530 yards if placed properly)

I was looking at your numbers for muzzle velocities. I'm not sure if those are actual numbers for your load or not. The reason I mention it is they seem low.

When I have loaded for the 140s it's been well above 3200 when I'm done. The 168 I haven't loaded for but I would guess we'll above 3000.

It might give you some wiggle room when figuring your numbers for when you settle on an actual load.

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