#11 How do you determine Maximum Range?

[hereinaz]

I jumped into a thread started by @Stinky Coyote and wrote the long explanation that I give to local guys that come to me to help them build a rifle and learn how to shoot long range. The issue comes up a lot in forums, and there are good discussions and opinions on the topic, lots of ethical claims too.

What is the analysis you put into maximum range for pressing the trigger on game?

 

[hereinaz]

I tell guys that ask me to help them build a rifle that long range is simple cause I can take you out right now and have you hitting 1000 yard targets with my rifle. But all the stuff I did before that is complicated. If they want to know more, I usually walk them through this advice so they know what I expect if they want my help. Long range isn't happening unless you put in the time to prepare, learn and practice. You can't buy your way into it with a rangefinder and custom turrets. But they have to spend enough money to buy the necessary gear. My first long range rifle only cost me $800 dollars. I was shooting factory Hornady and Federal match ammo. I printed sub MOA groups at 1000 yards at a long range class with Evolved Ballistics with it to the chagrin of the guys shooting Proof rifles with hand loads that couldn't hit the target, lol. The rifle was a cheap Savage on sale with rebate and the scope a fixed SWFA. My current rifle is wayyyy more than that. Everything I have is way more expensive than what I had then. Heck, my bipod right now cost 2x more than the rifle. It isn't necessary, but the gear I have increases opportunities and decreases uncertainty.

My outermost limit is the acceptable 1800 fps for terminal velocity of the Berger bullets I shoot. That is as far as the rifle is "capable" to kill, cause it is actually the bullet that kills. There are other constraints and limitations depending on the specific circumstances, of course. My skill isn't the limitation though, I push my gear to its limits and have 100% confidence in it. Of course, I chose my gear and practiced with it. I do have to say that in competitions like NRL hunter, I am at best a middle of the road contender, but I would never hurry myself like the competitions on a hunt. I know my limitations, and operating in them I have 100% confidence. I just don't even consider it an "opportunity" until my confidence level is high enough in the situation. So, my "max" range obviously has other functional limitations and considerations.

A) Time. If an animal is walking across an opening, I may break out my gear immediately so as to not waste time if it stops. But, I am not gonna try to rush a shot on a pause. I am also constantly watching, feeling wind, and gathering data to feel out a wind call out of habit. But I won't shoot until I have had adequate time to confidently range the animal, get a good wind call, and build a solid position adequately tested with dry fire. I can do it rather quickly, but won't press the trigger without confidence or in a hurry. On my Sitka deer in Alaska, after I decided to shoot and we had hiked into as close a position as I thought necessary. We were on one side of a mountain shooting across to the other side. I spent probably at least 25 minutes getting my breath, building my position, watching wind, dry firing, and even pulled my bolt to confirm I didn't have anything in the bore, lol. I would have waited longer for him to stand up and present a broadside shot, but when you know, you know. For my Coues deer, I hiked across a couple fingers closing the distance from 1300, to 1000, to 700ish, to finally 540 yards. It took more than an hour to cross all that rough steep country. I didn't have time to waste because it was getting to the end of shooting light and available light to get to him and process to pack him out. I set up and shot him in less than five minutes from the time I dropped my pack. I already had my wind call, and I spent the most time catching my breath and dryfiring to make sure I could break a clean shot.

B) Sectional density. There is something about the weight and SD of the 7mm 180 vld that is a sweet spot for external ballistics and terminal ballistics.

 

[hereinaz]

C) Bullet size/BC. Pick a .257, a 6.5, a 7mm, or a .308 caliber. All of them can kill to 1000 yards with the high BC bullets. The .257 is the lightest at about 130-135 grains, but that is definitely enough if you put it in the boiler room behind the shoulder. The difference comes in wind deflection, heavier bullets deflect less in the same wind. I won't go above 180 VLD in 7mm because it is the maximum recoil I am willing to put into my shooting system. Increasing recoil in field conditions decreases my ability to control recoil to spot shots and control the recoil while the barrel is in the bore which does affect group size. It is diminishing returns, because I would need to shoot 235 grain 308 bullets in something even bigger than a Win Mag in order to get the velocity needed to match the external ballistics of the 180 vld in 7mm. That is why a 7mm magnum shooting 180 VLD is superior IMO to typical 300 win mag and 300 PRC loads. At the 230+ grain .308 bullets with all that powder puts recoil beyond what I am comfortable with reliable and consistent shooting. (I won't shoot anything but suppressed and won't carry a heavy rifle).

D) Velocity. A high BC hunting bullet pushed between 2900 fps and 3100 fps is a sweet spot for loading, recoil, barrel life, ES, etc. Elevation dope is the same for bullets regardless of weight if the BC and the velocity is the same. Wind deflection is greater on the lighter bullets over the same TOF.

E) Short mag. There is also something about the bullet weight to powder ratio that makes it easier to load for and keep low ES (extreme velocity spread). The higher the ES, the larger the vertical spread will be at 1000 yards. It is pretty well known by a lot of shooters that short fat cartridges are easy to load for and have very consistent performance. 6BR/BRA/Dasher, 7 saum, 300 short mag, Sherman Short mags and Sherman Short Tactical, etc. I ran 6-7 grains less powder and shot 180 vlds at 2970 out of my 7 SS than shooting the same bullet at 2950 out of my 7 rem mag with more powder. The difference in powder makes them more efficient and so much easier to load for, and more consistent groups.

F) Wind Drift. In good wind conditions, the wind deflection of the 180 gives me a margin of error that is small enough out to 1000 for easy to call wind conditions. My 25 SS is still getting built, but the dope comes out really similar. A 6.5 PRC with high BC bullets can do the same thing, and with a little less recoil it is a fantastic choice. To get less wind drift than the 170 VLD I would need to get a heavier bullet at the same velocity, and that puts me back into the 235ish .308 bullets. I won't argue .308 can't be ballistically better, and doesn't whomp critters better, it can and it does. My argument is the recoil isn't worth it to me because any increase in precision/accuracy by a bigger bullet going faster is offset by the recoil that makes shooting it harder for the vast majority of guys. A lot of you dudes shooting RUM and saying you don't feel recoil, I am just not buying the machismo. The handful of guys running RUM that I have hunted with get worked by the recoil. I have seen guys who manage it, but they are serious dudes and have exceptional shooting form and recoil management. They also have a little more weight in them for that reason.

F) Shooting position. I prefer and practice shooting off my tripod. I can shoot my off my tripod in field conditions pretty much as well as prone off a bipod. Consequently, if I can sit down and get three legs of my tripod on the ground, I can shoot confidently to 1000. I actually like sitting on the slope of a mountain with my feet below me, because of the configuration of the tripod and how I build my position. That is pretty common for hunting in AZ like I do. I also don't like lying down if I could find a spot cause there is invariably cactus, lol. Standing off a tripod, I am confident to 500. But, I think with my new tripod and rifle configuration I could push it out further. If you don't practice in the field with a tripod, then stick with a bipod and rear bag for long range, with shooting sticks for intermediate distances.

G) Kill Zone. There are limitations on distance I will shoot depending on size of kill zone. An elk is large enough that I will shoot all the way to 1000 yards and the 1800 fps limit of my 7mm. But, a Coues deer vitals aren't big enough to absorb the known group size and the unknown confounding factors for DOPE. For instance, on the range, I can consistently shoot an 8-10 inch group with my 7 ss in no wind or limited wind situation, and first round impacts as well. (It doesn't count if you shoot a small group but miss your first or first few shots.) When factoring in the wind call on top of that, then the acceptable range reduces as the wind increases. In a 7 mph wind, my 7mm 180 vld deflects .1 mil for every hundred yards. So, out to 1000 yards, a 7 mph wind will drift it .7 mil. If I call wind at 10 mph but miss the wind call by 2 mph, then that would be about .2 mil additional error. Lets say my group size is already .2 mil at 1000 yards, add on bad wind of .2 mil and at the extremes that means I could miss left by .4 mil. At 1000 yards, a 1.0 mil target is 36 inches and .1 mil is 3.6 inches. So, the .4 mil error is 14.4" at 1000 yards. That's why elk are on the menu at 1000 yards, but Coues deer really can't be.

H) Don't be a hero. I can usually close distance, and I will shoot to 1000 yards only if the terrain limits me. I will always get as close as I can down to 500 yards. I usually stop and take the shot while the option presents itself if I get to 500 yards. I don't really need to get closer for complete confidence. When I can shoot a 4 inch group on a rock at 500 yards from a field position and my first impact is center of the group, I see no reason not to pull the trigger as soon as I can set up at 500. Shooting suppressed, I actually feel like I would have more opportunities at 500 if I were to make a bad shot because game just don't react to the shots. Strangely, I have more confidence at 500 yards than shooting offhand at 100 yards. That comment makes me realize I just need to practice offhand shots more, lol.

CONCLUSION:

That pretty well captures what I think about long range. And, it probably confirms you all think I overanalyze stuff, which I do. All of that doesn't mean anything if I didn't do the work with my gear practicing and dialing in the gear I chose. I have my rifle doped, data trued, and range proven to 1000, I have redundant ballistic calculators, I understand everything about my technical gear, I have 100% confidence in my rangefinder (and that I accurately ranged the animal and not a tree in front or behind), I don't let my ammo get too hot or too cold in the field, I load my ammo to spec and tested with low ES, I keep my rifle system and tripod in operating condition, I only use the same quality scope and reticle that won't crap out on me, I test and confirm bolts are torqued and haven't moved on the rifle, I keep the barrel appropriately cleaned and fouled, I have a shooting checklist that is natural to build my position and operate my rifle so I don't forget to dial my dope or leave dope dialed on, and more. If you can do that or more, you too can be a long range hero.

​

 

[Stinky Coyote]

that's a mouthful

thought I was wordy lol, just funnin man, great info

some other perspectives to layer in is where are you in your hunting stages and life period? we tend to do a bit of an arc, pun intended, in this area as well, I forget all the stages but there's the bloodlust fill every tag possible, there's the trophy stage all about the big bone, there's the method stages layered in there (weapon types and choices, bows, guns, high horsepower/low horsepower, modern/traditional etc.) then there's the mellowing out stage, different things become important, for me now it's having the kids do most of the trigger pulling and freezer filling, and method more so in efficiency, I've climbed back down the horsepower max modern performance ladder but using modern performance with a lot less powder to play where I've come to terms with ranges afield on game

the list can be very long in choosing a cartridge and then rifle around it, most of us will start with the bullet, then figure out how much powder we need behind it to push it as far as we want to push it, then figure out what will wrap around that cartridge/bullet combo and that we wish to carry afield for our needs/desires (a 6 lb shoulder slammer magnum or a 9 lb wimpster that lets you watch everything in the scope like a movie), there's a wide range of availabilities but they should match what your goals afield, you will certainly see wide range of efficiency in guys gear to their chosen tasks, some run the line pretty close if not to the minimal side, some like as much insurance as possible

starting with the bullet you may have min diameter, minimum weight, minimum sd, minimum bc thresholds, construction type thresholds for game intended or terminal performance you prefer that then ties into min impact velocities, then you can layer in max distance thresholds which will go hand in had with minimum impact velocity thresholds, time of flight seems like it may have a relationship with max distance thresholds...we're still working that one out some but its certainly worth looking at as we don't hunt dead stuff

likely missing a few other choices in bullet parameters but that would cover the basics for most, then move to the cartridge that will push it to what you need, availability, etc. quite a few factors one may place on this part of the equation, for me one of them is I place high value on factory availability, recoil energy as part of shootability, barrel life, noise (we aren't allowed suppressors in Canada) and again I'm likely missing several parameters around cartridge selection to drive your bullet choice but we get the point

then you move onto the weapon, so many ways to skin that cat to match your goals and methods afield, you can keep it super simple hunt friendly or you can get carried away with rabbit holes of competitive gear and modern elr ballistics technology etc. the limits are widely variable in this first quarter of the 21st century, good time to be a hunter, we can match so many goal options now right off the shelf, it's take a long time to get here!

it's obvious one can overthink the living snot out of this stuff and get lost down some deep rabbit holes, the harder part seems to be to better define ones goals before they start investing in gear to match everything up to what you really end up doing afield, threads like this should help add valuable perspectives, it's pretty amazing what you can do with a basic factory rifle, factory ammo, basic scope, basic rangefinder with these 21st century bullet/cartridge and equipment options, you can dumb it right down or go to unheard of levels from the 20th century, I mean it's common place now for guys here to drive proficiently 20' feet of elevation dope and 5' of wind dope...incredible time to be into this stuff

we can't always forget either there are guys out there who lay down with a slinged 308 and iron sights and shoot groups at 1000 meters that many would be happy with at 500 yards lol, the key point there is the gear is typically far more capable than the drivers, but drivers who put in the time with their gear and their chosen systems can get closer to maximizing that gears potential, figure out where you wanna land and have fun, try not to hurt your wallet too much in process, you can affordably do very well out there now

 

[hereinaz]

that's a mouthful

thought I was wordy lol, just funnin man, great info

some other perspectives to layer in is where are you in your hunting stages and life period? we tend to do a bit of an arc, pun intended, in this area as well, I forget all the stages but there's the bloodlust fill every tag possible, there's the trophy stage all about the big bone, there's the method stages layered in there (weapon types and choices, bows, guns, high horsepower/low horsepower, modern/traditional etc.) then there's the mellowing out stage, different things become important, for me now it's having the kids do most of the trigger pulling and freezer filling, and method more so in efficiency, I've climbed back down the horsepower max modern performance ladder but using modern performance with a lot less powder to play where I've come to terms with ranges afield on game

the list can be very long in choosing a cartridge and then rifle around it, most of us will start with the bullet, then figure out how much powder we need behind it to push it as far as we want to push it, then figure out what will wrap around that cartridge/bullet combo and that we wish to carry afield for our needs/desires (a 6 lb shoulder slammer magnum or a 9 lb wimpster that lets you watch everything in the scope like a movie), there's a wide range of availabilities but they should match what your goals afield, you will certainly see wide range of efficiency in guys gear to their chosen tasks, some run the line pretty close if not to the minimal side, some like as much insurance as possible

starting with the bullet you may have min diameter, minimum weight, minimum sd, minimum bc thresholds, construction type thresholds for game intended or terminal performance you prefer that then ties into min impact velocities, then you can layer in max distance thresholds which will go hand in had with minimum impact velocity thresholds, time of flight seems like it may have a relationship with max distance thresholds...we're still working that one out some but its certainly worth looking at as we don't hunt dead stuff

likely missing a few other choices in bullet parameters but that would cover the basics for most, then move to the cartridge that will push it to what you need, availability, etc. quite a few factors one may place on this part of the equation, for me one of them is I place high value on factory availability, recoil energy as part of shootability, barrel life, noise (we aren't allowed suppressors in Canada) and again I'm likely missing several parameters around cartridge selection to drive your bullet choice but we get the point

then you move onto the weapon, so many ways to skin that cat to match your goals and methods afield, you can keep it super simple hunt friendly or you can get carried away with rabbit holes of competitive gear and modern elr ballistics technology etc. the limits are widely variable in this first quarter of the 21st century, good time to be a hunter, we can match so many goal options now right off the shelf, it's take a long time to get here!

it's obvious one can overthink the living snot out of this stuff and get lost down some deep rabbit holes, the harder part seems to be to better define ones goals before they start investing in gear to match everything up to what you really end up doing afield, threads like this should help add valuable perspectives, it's pretty amazing what you can do with a basic factory rifle, factory ammo, basic scope, basic rangefinder with these 21st century bullet/cartridge and equipment options, you can dumb it right down or go to unheard of levels from the 20th century, I mean it's common place now for guys here to drive proficiently 20' feet of elevation dope and 5' of wind dope...incredible time to be into this stuff

we can't always forget either there are guys out there who lay down with a slinged 308 and iron sights and shoot groups at 1000 meters that many would be happy with at 500 yards lol, the key point there is the gear is typically far more capable than the drivers, but drivers who put in the time with their gear and their chosen systems can get closer to maximizing that gears potential, figure out where you wanna land and have fun, try not to hurt your wallet too much in process, you can affordably do very well out there now

Agreed. I start with objective, choose bullet, and then build around that.

The technology and knowledge is crazy advanced. In the end, the practical difference between a lot of the arguments is so minimal. Differences between bullets, caliber, guns, scopes, MIL, MOA, etc. come down to preference really. A guy with skills can pretty well take most rifles that shoot MOA or better and kill a lot of stuff. A guy with no skills and a fancy gun still isn't going to kill.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

oh, I should answer the question of how do I determine my comfortable max range for hunting?

I did this by applying my skills and gear from range to field on combined coyotes and big game. Once you move to live targets you learn a few things over time that may make some additional changes or limits to what you do afield vs the range.

currently I'm happy to keep things ~400 on big game, coyotes and steel to as far as I can hit em or dial em now which is ~500. most of my days this was ~600 to big game and briefly up to ~800, the year I ran my 800 yard rig was about year 4 in my 1st ram quest, my 800 yard rig (plus carry data to carry me to 1000) for that 'ram of a lifetime across a basin' what if and killed my ram at 35 yards then shot 3 more big game critters the same season including a bull moose and a 190" muley and a 4x whitetail buck, all with a bow, and all of them were further than my rifle kill (40, 53, 65 yards), the irony still isn't lost on me and that was quite some time ago lol, that stung a little but also laughed a lot about it, I've backed things off every since with the bang sticks

I'm no longer in trophy phase, I don't travel to distant lands, I don't need much insurance. I blend predators and freezer filling, and not much elk hunting as I don't like them like I like moose, some moose draws but deer/sheep/black bear mostly.

so I moved to a set up that is uber efficient for my asks, I get my chosen bullet to 1800 fps min impact at 420, so zero fat in extra powder/recoil required, it's been fun watching it all in the scope too, I really like the terminal performance of window of my chosen bullet between 2350/1700 fps and my rig does this very well from basically muzzle to max ideal opportunity distance thresholds, I'd be well over-gunned and over-manbunned with a 6.5 Creedmoor or PRC lol

having said that I recognize I'm niche in asks and shoot niche cartridge that fits needs, I almost always pimp out the 6.5 Creedmoor to anyone for max versatility and future proofness.

I'm not typically in the same goals range now as most who'd spend time on these forums. I used to push things further, just the old slow guy now with simple gear/set-up but still smash good when deals need closing. I have a mentality now, as a long time bowhunter, that if I can't get down with this 6.5 Grandma then I suck...keeps me honest and happy out there.

Recognize where you're at in the game and go have fun.

 

[Justin Crossley]

What is the analysis you put into maximum range for pressing the trigger on game?

My simple rule for myself is this; I only shoot if I would be extremely surprised if the shot wasn't immediately fatal.

A lot of things go into that determination obviously. And, I've made the mistake of shooting beyond the distance I should have in a given situation before.

I continue to shoot and learn more and feel my MER is always changing.

 

[hereinaz]

My simple rule for myself is this; I only shoot if I would be extremely surprised if the shot wasn't immediately fatal.

A lot of things go into that determination obviously. And, I've made the mistake of shooting beyond the distance I should have in a given situation before.

I continue to shoot and learn more and feel my MER is always changing.

That is my rule of thumb as well. My first shot should be the last shot.

If I was absolutely dying to take a shot on a once in a lifetime animal but my gut told me "no", I still wouldn't send lead. I have already decided I would pick a rock or object far enough away from the animal to test my dope. I have practiced that after someone suggested how easy it would be with a suppressor. Never tried it though, cause I have been able to get close enough.

 

[willfrye027]

I’m in the stage where I am learning a ton about long range shooting and trying to push myself to farther effective ranges. This year I’ve been shooting more in the mountains dragging my steel around. I am treating it sort of like archery. I want my cold bore shot to be money every time, regardless of the conditions. From there I am slowly building a realistic MER which has a lot more to do with conditions than anything else.

 

[07yzryder]

All conditions perfect 600 right now is my limit only because I have backed up to confirm dope and practice. 600 off bipod/tripod prone I can hit the head box on my ipsc steel target first round.

When training for a hunt I add in discomfort. Out on the pack and hike up and down a small hill 2/3 times then take a shot off a Joshua tree at various distances, sometimes I'll setup the tripod but I know if I can hit off the Joshua tree in an odd position I'll be fine off the tripod. Right now that limit is 500 only because that's how far I've pushed it. I know the rifle is capable to 1k easily, most are. I'm am the weakest link and work to ensure I know my max distance for various positions.

Worst part is what I consider comfortable (6x6 head box) cold bore impact others consider overkill. Ive seen people pepper a target at 100 and say that'll kill at 400 even though their shooting a 6 inch group at 100. Please know your rifle, yourself and your game, you owe it to an animal you are hunting for a clean ethical kill.